Not By Works
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Well that is a departure from classical reformed theology.... and a principle teacher of your faith R. C. Sproul
Yet Aquinas insisted that regenerating grace is operative grace, not cooperative grace. Aquinas spoke of prevenient grace, but he spoke of a grace that comes before faith, which is regeneration.
These giants of Christian history derived their view from Holy Scripture. The key phrase in Paul's Letter to the Ephesians is this: "...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved)" (Eph. 2:5). Here Paul locates the time when regeneration occurs.
It takes place 'when we were dead.' With one thunderbolt of apostolic revelation all attempts to give the initiative in regeneration to man are smashed. Again, dead men do not cooperate with grace. Unless regeneration takes place first, there is no possibility of faith.
https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul01.html
Yet Aquinas insisted that regenerating grace is operative grace, not cooperative grace. Aquinas spoke of prevenient grace, but he spoke of a grace that comes before faith, which is regeneration.
These giants of Christian history derived their view from Holy Scripture. The key phrase in Paul's Letter to the Ephesians is this: "...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved)" (Eph. 2:5). Here Paul locates the time when regeneration occurs.
It takes place 'when we were dead.' With one thunderbolt of apostolic revelation all attempts to give the initiative in regeneration to man are smashed. Again, dead men do not cooperate with grace. Unless regeneration takes place first, there is no possibility of faith.
https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul01.html
You may not agree with my theology, but I hope you can at least see where I am coming from. God saves His ppl in spite of who they are. They hated Him, yet He gave them the ability to come to a Him when He drew them. That’s why John 6:44 teaches. All that the Father draws will come to Him. That same Greek word helko is used. So He isn’t drawing everyone indiscriminately, but those He gave to the Son to die for, to atone for their sins.
You may not agree with that, but I do believe that is what the scriptures teach. If you have any more questions, fire away. I’ll do my best to give you a biblical answer.
You may not agree with that, but I do believe that is what the scriptures teach. If you have any more questions, fire away. I’ll do my best to give you a biblical answer.
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Hi @jackrosie ...
The two thieves on the cross , one was saved , one was not...
That came to my mind to your question , so I spoke it , hope I have not used it out of context to your question...
...xox...
The two thieves on the cross , one was saved , one was not...
That came to my mind to your question , so I spoke it , hope I have not used it out of context to your question...
...xox...
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Further with regards to TOTAL INABILITY>>>>>>
The issue is not with the will, but with the ~spirit~ of man.
The spirit of an unregenerate man is dead.
If that man chooses to do any of the works of a regenerate believer in Jesus, he can–from his dead spirit and from his natural soul, ultimately from a source of fleshly self-pride.
The difference is not in the will, but in the condition of the spirit–alive or dead, connected to God’s Spirit or not connected to God’s Spirit.
One of the great errors of theologians is to trust their own theories and logical ideas rather than the Word of God and the Spirit of God.
God did not say that, in the day that you eat of it you will no longer have a will, but rather, in the day that you eat of it, you will die: your spirit will die.
"And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced…" -Zechariah 12:10
The issue is not with the will, but with the ~spirit~ of man.
The spirit of an unregenerate man is dead.
If that man chooses to do any of the works of a regenerate believer in Jesus, he can–from his dead spirit and from his natural soul, ultimately from a source of fleshly self-pride.
The difference is not in the will, but in the condition of the spirit–alive or dead, connected to God’s Spirit or not connected to God’s Spirit.
One of the great errors of theologians is to trust their own theories and logical ideas rather than the Word of God and the Spirit of God.
God did not say that, in the day that you eat of it you will no longer have a will, but rather, in the day that you eat of it, you will die: your spirit will die.
"And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced…" -Zechariah 12:10
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The will of fallen men is bound in sin and Satan. Their spirit is dead and will bound. Satan has them in his clutches. Man doesn’t do his part and Satan then sets him free. Man in the clutches of Satan cannot and will not seek God, seeing Satan has him bound. 2 Cor. 4:4 goes so far as to say Satan has their minds blinded, and cannot see light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
That’s why we sing ”Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost, but now I’m found, was BLIND but now I see.“
God has to come in and set him free. Then, and only then, is the will free to come to Him. Until you realize fallen man is enslaved to sin and Satan, your whole soteriology is off kilter.
That’s why we sing ”Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost, but now I’m found, was BLIND but now I see.“
God has to come in and set him free. Then, and only then, is the will free to come to Him. Until you realize fallen man is enslaved to sin and Satan, your whole soteriology is off kilter.
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I can see this
but then Jesus also added all who see and believe would have life
in John 6 all those people were drawn to him by the miracles and his teachings. It’s why they chased after him but they could not truly see what he was there for so they never did believe. Because in their minds they did
Not need a savior from God but a savior for Rome
But in the end not everyone saw and believed. And remember one of his own chosen disciples was in his words the devil
Foreknowledge comes to the forfront. Does he draw people he knows will
Never believe no matter what he does?
but then Jesus also added all who see and believe would have life
in John 6 all those people were drawn to him by the miracles and his teachings. It’s why they chased after him but they could not truly see what he was there for so they never did believe. Because in their minds they did
Not need a savior from God but a savior for Rome
But in the end not everyone saw and believed. And remember one of his own chosen disciples was in his words the devil
Foreknowledge comes to the forfront. Does he draw people he knows will
Never believe no matter what he does?
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Read it very carefully and in context ... pay attention to the brilliant mind of Paul who was well aware of the philosophies in his day...
The comparison here is not natural man with the spiritual man ...
the contrast is between human wisdom and divine revelation.
He is stating if you rely on human wisdom (philosophies) you cannot understand the divine revelation.
You will deny this because it does not fit your schema and this Calvinist view is everywhere but the theme/context of this section of Paul’s letter is not “sinner” versus “saint,” or the “unregenerate” in contrast to the “regenerate.”
Your view makes God morally culpable... because it is God's fault if “unregenerate” man never accesses the things of God.
The comparison here is not natural man with the spiritual man ...
the contrast is between human wisdom and divine revelation.
He is stating if you rely on human wisdom (philosophies) you cannot understand the divine revelation.
You will deny this because it does not fit your schema and this Calvinist view is everywhere but the theme/context of this section of Paul’s letter is not “sinner” versus “saint,” or the “unregenerate” in contrast to the “regenerate.”
Your view makes God morally culpable... because it is God's fault if “unregenerate” man never accesses the things of God.
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This thread is the only thread I post under. Why? Because it is the most important one to me. Why? Because it shows through posts the most important issue regarding salvation; works or no works. God has a plan. God provided a plan. Man makes it complex and often divisive, false, etc.
It is my hope that the need to "close the thread for good" will not come to fruition because the very purpose for the saving of our souls is dependent on the Truth of the Word of God.
Eternal life through the saving of our souls is more important in my honest opinion that any other topic on this site.
It is my hope that the need to "close the thread for good" will not come to fruition because the very purpose for the saving of our souls is dependent on the Truth of the Word of God.
Eternal life through the saving of our souls is more important in my honest opinion that any other topic on this site.
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