The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
P

PlainWord

Senior Member
#1,941
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#1,941
KJV1611 said:
I didn't think you believed in a literal 1000 year reign, I don't. And if you read these verses as exactly as they are written, BOTH groups are the 1st resurrection. The resurrected saints who had not worshipped the beast AND the rest of dead that lived not again until the thousand years were fininshed... BOTH of these are the first resurrection.

(Rev 20:4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(Rev 20:5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(Rev 20:6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Click to expand...
Literal, no. I don't believe in a literal 1,000 year millennial reign of Christ. I believe 1,000 years denotes a long period of time, such as 1,000 or 2,000 years or more. However, I do believe the Mosaic Age from Abraham to 66 AD lasted about 2,000 years. The age before that from Adam to Abraham also lasted about 2,000 years. Thus each age (at least the two prior ones) were about 2,000 years in duration. Science can't say how long an astrological age is but I've seen anything from 2,000 to 2,500 years.

I further believe that the end of our age is nearing. As the New Jerusalem, I believe it is when the Church is surrounded by the evildoers in the world and when we've lost our voice and influence that the world will spin out-of-control, kind of like what is happening now. When this happens and the Church has been silenced or taken over to the point that the message of salvation has been replaced by secular immorality that God will intervene and fire will come down from heaven and devour the evil then the next age will start. We have no clue what that age will be like. In the meantime, heaven is open to each believer upon death. We have individual resurrections as the writer of Hebrews taught.
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#1,942
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#1,942
PlainWord said:
Literal, no. I don't believe in a literal 1,000 year millennial reign of Christ. I believe 1,000 years denotes a long period of time, such as 1,000 or 2,000 years or more. However, I do believe the Mosaic Age from Abraham to 66 AD lasted about 2,000 years. The age before that from Adam to Abraham also lasted about 2,000 years. Thus each age (at least the two prior ones) were about 2,000 years in duration. Science can't say how long an astrological age is but I've seen anything from 2,000 to 2,500 years.

I further believe that the end of our age is nearing. As the New Jerusalem, I believe it is when the Church is surrounded by the evildoers in the world and when we've lost our voice and influence that the world will spin out-of-control, kind of like what is happening now. When this happens and the Church has been silenced or taken over to the point that the message of salvation has been replaced by secular immorality that God will intervene and fire will come down from heaven and devour the evil then the next age will start. We have no clue what that age will be like. In the meantime, heaven is open to each believer upon death. We have individual resurrections as the writer of Hebrews taught.
Click to expand...
What do you mean by individual resurrections?
 
P

PlainWord

Senior Member
#1,943
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#1,943
KJV1611 said:
What do you mean by individual resurrections?
Click to expand...
poor choice of words. Each of us become a "new creation" upon accepting Christ 2 Cor 5:17. The passage goes on to say, "Old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." We are "coded" if you like from death to salvation so that when we die, we go to the correct place, Heaven. So, when we die, we are "resurrected from" (lack of better word) our old physical dead body immediately to our new spiritual body and through the tunnel or passage into the spiritual dimension/realm. The Book is opened and if we are found in it, we get to stay and get judged for our works. Based on our works, we become glorified to whatever degree of glorification (brilliance of light) we deserve. I believe this is the lesson of 1 Cor 15.
 
T

Truth7t7

Well-known member
#1,944
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,495
113
#1,944
Jimbone said:
Wow you cast me out before you even meet me or even ask me a question. 3 strikes and I'm out? Who are you to speak in judgement of me? I think you're stepping out of you're place, trying to act as if you, YOU are above me and striking me out without 1 question. Who do you think you are? As we say down here, you're getting a bit too big for your britches. I agree with everything you said up there. Are we reborn KNOWING all these thing automatically the exact same for every person? I mean do we grow in Him? Are we learning every day? I hope so, I testify that is how His Spirit works in me, the way I see the world now is 1000x different than I saw it 6 years ago when He changed me, heck my view since last year is different, and I pray this year I grow in Him so much I see things in a whole new way next year. I am not understanding the logic behind this obsession with Eschatology, what you are saying here is just not so. You do not have to believe any of the three "strikes" you listed to be saved. Those things have nothing to do with the gospel.

The gospel is that we are born broken and just as wicked as we could possibly be with no hope at all. Not only no hope of fixing the problem, but in and of ourselves, we don't even have any hope of identifying whats wrong. This is what makes direct revelation absolutely necessary. We are broken beyond any hope of repairing it ourselves so our Creator chooses a people to reveal His goodness and the Law we were created to live in. God tells us the who, what, when, where, why, and how these people will do so and is 100% correct on everything He says. Us still being in the flesh could never live in His law.

So just as He said He would our Lord is born into this world, born of a virgin of the Holy Spirit, not of Adam in sin. Jesus was born and lived exactly and perfectly as we were created to live. So He was always obedient to the Fathers will and NEVER transgressed it. Never sinned. Never earned the wages of death. (I'll come back to this, it's important)

He came and showed how the people had taken Gods law and misused, misunderstood, and completely corrupted Gods word. Jesus told them (us) that we were wrong, and they could not dispute a thing He said, other than claiming He was God. He told us we were wrong and we crucified Him for it. We gave Him the wages He never eared, we killed the flesh our God came in calling us to Him in.
But it was not the flesh that paid the price, oh no, while He hung there, abandon and along our Father poured out His wrath on the only innocent man to walk the face of the earth. All His wrath, all Hid judgement was put on Jesus, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Takes on a whole new meaning from this perspective huh? God did this, Jesus like Isaak lay down His life so the Fathers will be done, so that now by His grace, through belief in, faith, in His Son Jesus Christ, that He died and took your due wrath, your punishment, so that He could justly, without ANY sin going unpunished, grant us Jesus righteousness so that our spirit is resurrected and reconciled to His. This is being born again, it is your spirit, your dead spirit, being resurrected and reconnected to our Creator. Forever filling that hole inside we tried so hard filling with the flesh to no avail, we are made whole to go forth and proclaim His name to all nations.

You do not have to know ANYTHING at all about the end times. Brother you are just wrong about this and just look at the division you declare over this issue. Really just strait up SAD. Think about this man. Is it really worth all the bickering and division, over issues like this.
Click to expand...
Any belief that denies the (3) items presented is (Heretical), the Mormons and JW's are more credible.
The scripture is plain and clear, Mark and avoid those that teach "False Doctrine"

Another Doctrine!

1.) The individual denies a future return of Jesus Christ to earth?

2.) The individual denies the future glorified body of the believer and resurrection on the last day?

3.) The individual denies a future New Heaven and Earth?

Three Strikes You're Out!

"Avoid Them"!

Romans 16:17KJV
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
 
R

Runningman

Banned
#1,945
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
#1,945
Truth7t7 said:
Any belief that denies the (3) items presented is (Heretical), the Mormons and JW's are more credible.
The scripture is plain and clear, Mark and avoid those that teach "False Doctrine"

Another Doctrine!

1.) The individual denies a future return of Jesus Christ to earth?

2.) The individual denies the future glorified body of the believer and resurrection on the last day?

3.) The individual denies a future New Heaven and Earth?

Three Strikes You're Out!

"Avoid Them"!

Romans 16:17KJV
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Click to expand...
One thing I've noticed is that websites like this where there are Bible discussion forums attract people who really like to discuss the Bible. People who are interested enough on the Bible to discuss it using hundreds, even thousands, of impassioned posts probably have firmly held beliefs and convictions about what they are saying.

The result is we get a message board full of people with vastly different interpretations who are steadfastly unmoving from any position that contradicts their view. That accounts for most of the bickering and disagreements. And you will find most people aren't teachable here.

I have gotten into one argument, bit afterwards I realized the vanity of it. It's better to just state a position, explain why, and move on without trying to convince people of anything. That's my opinion.
 
T

Truth7t7

Well-known member
#1,946
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,495
113
#1,946
Runningman said:
One thing I've noticed is that websites like this where there are Bible discussion forums attract people who really like to discuss the Bible. People who are interested enough on the Bible to discuss it using hundreds, even thousands, of impassioned posts probably have firmly held beliefs and convictions about what they are saying.

The result is we get a message board full of people with vastly different interpretations who are steadfastly unmoving from any position that contradicts their view. That accounts for most of the bickering and disagreements. And you will find most people aren't teachable here.

I have gotten into one argument, bit afterwards I realized the vanity of it. It's better to just state a position, explain why, and move on without trying to convince people of anything. That's my opinion.
Click to expand...
The truth of the matter is, the (Majority) of Christian boards (Don't Allow) heretical teachings such as (Full Preterism) and (Universalism) so the outcome is what you see.

I post against the heresy to protect the babe in Christ from the wolves that are present.
 
Jimbone

Jimbone

Senior Member
#1,947
Aug 22, 2014
2,971
972
113
44
#1,947
Truth7t7 said:
Any belief that denies the (3) items presented is (Heretical), the Mormons and JW's are more credible.
The scripture is plain and clear, Mark and avoid those that teach "False Doctrine"

Another Doctrine!

1.) The individual denies a future return of Jesus Christ to earth?

2.) The individual denies the future glorified body of the believer and resurrection on the last day?

3.) The individual denies a future New Heaven and Earth?

Three Strikes You're Out!

"Avoid Them"!

Romans 16:17KJV
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Click to expand...
You're wrong. So wrong. Are you saying that something has to be added to the gospel I presented here? We HAVE to understand end times the same way you do to be saved? PLEASE ANSWER THIS CLEARLY.

As I can't explain myself any more clearly than I have, I leave you with on last declaration the our belief on end times has NOTHING AT ALL, EVER to do with salvation. You can be saved and may believe either or, I KNOW this because I've held both view while saved. So there is no way at all you can be right, and your arrogance blinds you to the possibility you may be the one leading the babes astray? Ever thought of that? I doubt it.
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#1,948
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#1,948
PlainWord said:
poor choice of words. Each of us become a "new creation" upon accepting Christ 2 Cor 5:17. The passage goes on to say, "Old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." We are "coded" if you like from death to salvation so that when we die, we go to the correct place, Heaven. So, when we die, we are "resurrected from" (lack of better word) our old physical dead body immediately to our new spiritual body and through the tunnel or passage into the spiritual dimension/realm. The Book is opened and if we are found in it, we get to stay and get judged for our works. Based on our works, we become glorified to whatever degree of glorification (brilliance of light) we deserve. I believe this is the lesson of 1 Cor 15.
Click to expand...
I pretty much agree with that but we must also keep in mind that Jesus said those who believe on him will never experience death. So what you are calling "resurrected from" is actually a translation that takes place prior to our death. And this is why I said the resurrection is perpetually ongoing.

The more I study the more apparent it is becoming that the resurrection had little to do with the raising of dead bodies but it seems to point more toward the translation of believers into glorified bodies.
 
T

Truth7t7

Well-known member
#1,949
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,495
113
#1,949
Jimbone said:
You're wrong. So wrong. Are you saying that something has to be added to the gospel I presented here? We HAVE to understand end times the same way you do to be saved? PLEASE ANSWER THIS CLEARLY.

As I can't explain myself any more clearly than I have, I leave you with on last declaration the our belief on end times has NOTHING AT ALL, EVER to do with salvation. You can be saved and may believe either or, I KNOW this because I've held both view while saved. So there is no way at all you can be right, and your arrogance blinds you to the possibility you may be the one leading the babes astray? Ever thought of that? I doubt it.
Click to expand...
I don't have the pen that writes in the Lambs Book Of Life, nor have I seen within it.

One thing I do know, any teaching that denies the (3) items below is heretical.

Another Doctrine!

1.) The individual denies a future return of Jesus Christ to earth?

2.) The individual denies the future glorified body of the believer and resurrection on the last day?

3.) The individual denies a future New Heaven and Earth?
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#1,950
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#1,950
Runningman said:
One thing I've noticed is that websites like this where there are Bible discussion forums attract people who really like to discuss the Bible. People who are interested enough on the Bible to discuss it using hundreds, even thousands, of impassioned posts probably have firmly held beliefs and convictions about what they are saying.

The result is we get a message board full of people with vastly different interpretations who are steadfastly unmoving from any position that contradicts their view. That accounts for most of the bickering and disagreements. And you will find most people aren't teachable here.

I have gotten into one argument, bit afterwards I realized the vanity of it. It's better to just state a position, explain why, and move on without trying to convince people of anything. That's my opinion.
Click to expand...
The truth of the matter is that if everybody believed every single word of the bible as it's written, there would be no arguments.
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#1,951
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#1,951
Truth7t7 said:
I don't have the pen that writes in the Lambs Book Of Life.

One thing I do know is any teaching that denies the (3) items below is heretical.

Another Doctrine!

1.) The individual denies a future return of Jesus Christ to earth?

2.) The individual denies the future glorified body of the believer and resurrection on the last day?

3.) The individual denies a future New Heaven and Earth?
Click to expand...
This new heaven and new earth, do they come before or after the millennial reign of Christ?
 
T

Truth7t7

Well-known member
#1,952
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,495
113
#1,952
KJV1611 said:
I hate to break these up into separate responses but I think it makes things easier to keep up with.

Did you notice that Daniel 12:2 says exactly the same as Matthew, it says MANY of them, not ALL shall awake.

(Dan 12:2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Click to expand...
Bend and Twist God's truth, as you disregard the "Full Counsel Of God"

John 5:28-29 is a parallel teaching of Daniel 12:1-2, you have been shown this truth several times.

"ALL THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES SHALL HEAR HIS VOICE, AND SHALL COME FORTH"

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Daniel 12:2KJV
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#1,953
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#1,953
Truth7t7 said:
Bend and Twist God's truth, as you disregard the "Full Counsel Of God"

John 5:28-29 is a parallel teaching of Daniel 12:1-2, you have been shown this truth several times.

"ALL THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES SHALL HEAR HIS VOICE, AND SHALL COME FORTH"

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Daniel 12:2KJV
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Click to expand...
They did all hear his voice and come forth BUT NOT ALL went into the holy city because SOME weren't IN JERUSALEM. So get off you're super Christian high horse and start reading the bible for EXACTLY what it says and stop ADDING your spin to it. If you would stop adding to the word, you might learn something. But YOU WONT... that I'm sure of.

(Mat 27:52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
(Mat 27:53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
 
T

Truth7t7

Well-known member
#1,954
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,495
113
#1,954
KJV1611 said:
This new heaven and new earth, do they come before or after the millennial reign of Christ?
Click to expand...
You have been shown several times in my posting, you will be shown again.

You deny the future return of Jesus Christ in the heavens, however the future events below take place immediately after the future tribulation.

You also disregard a future literal destruction of this existing earth, in denial of scripture presented below

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
 
T

Truth7t7

Well-known member
#1,955
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,495
113
#1,955
KJV1611 said:
They did all hear his voice and come forth BUT NOT ALL went into the holy city because SOME weren't IN JERUSALEM. So get off you're super Christian high horse and start reading the bible for EXACTLY what it says and stop ADDING your spin to it. If you would stop adding to the word, you might learn something. But YOU WONT... that I'm sure of.

(Mat 27:52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
(Mat 27:53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Click to expand...
Those that came out of the grave after "His Resurrection" were raised from the dead, just as Lazarus and Tabitha were raised, in human bodies that were to die again.

Its you who has added to scripture, in the false claim that those who came out of the grave were "Resurrected"

The Resurrection of those who have died in faith takes place on "The Last Day" as Jesus Christ taught, John 6:40, 5:28-29, 11:23-24
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#1,956
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#1,956
Truth7t7 said:
Those that came out of the grave after "His Resurrection" were raised from the dead, just as Lazarus and Tabitha were raised, in human bodies that were to die again.

Its you who has added to scripture, in the false claim that those who came out of the grave were "Resurrected"
Click to expand...
Here you go again ADDING TO the word of God. Show me the scripture where the SECOND death of Lazarus and Tabitha is recorded.

Also show me the verse that says "it is appointed unto man TWICE to die and then the judgement".

You accuse me of twisting and adding to scripture and look at what you just did. SMH

I think you need to take that beam out of your eye so you can see more clearly to take the speck out of my eye.
 
T

Truth7t7

Well-known member
#1,957
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,495
113
#1,957
KJV1611 said:
Here you go again ADDING TO the word of God. Show me the scripture where the SECOND death of Lazarus and Tabitha is recorded.

Also show me the verse that says "it is appointed unto man TWICE to die and then the judgement".

You accuse me of twisting and adding to scripture and look at what you just did. SMH

I think you need to take that beam out of your eye so you can see more clearly to take the speck out of my eye.
Click to expand...
You gave total disregard to my scripture referenced, as Jesus Christ taught and stood in agreement with Martha that Lazarus was to be resurrected on "The Last Day", and the day he was "Raised From The Dead" wasn't "The Last Day"

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#1,958
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#1,958
Truth7t7 said:
You gave total disregard to my scripture referenced, as Jesus Christ taught and stood in agreement with Martha that Lazarus was to be resurrected on "The Last Day", and the day he was "Raised From The Dead" wasn't "The Last Day"

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Click to expand...
There you go again ADDING TO the words of Jesus. Jesus didn’t speak in agreement with Martha. Jesus said that HE is the resurrection and anybody who believes in him, though he was dead, yet shall he live. Jesus didn’t say anything about the last day, YOU did.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
 
T

Truth7t7

Well-known member
#1,959
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,495
113
#1,959
KJV1611 said:
There you go again ADDING TO the words of Jesus. Jesus didn’t speak in agreement with Martha. Jesus said that HE is the resurrection and anybody who believes in him, though he was dead, yet shall he live. Jesus didn’t say anything about the last day, YOU did.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Click to expand...
You have been show this biblical truth several times, yes Jesus Christ taught "The Last Day" resurrection, Lararus was not resurrected but "Raised From The Dead" as "The Last Day" is a future event.

No further response to the folly.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
#1,960
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,112
113
#1,960
Truth7t7 said:
You have been show this biblical truth several times, yes Jesus Christ taught "The Last Day" resurrection, Lararus was not resurrected but "Raised From The Dead" as "The Last Day" is a future event.
Click to expand...
Hmmm. Are you saying that Jesus was not "resurrected," but only "raised from the dead," as though the two phrases refer to wholly distinct things (tho we know that OUR bodily resurrection is yet future, for those of us who will have DIED before that point ;) ).


Consider the following:

"then let this be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed." - Acts 4:10


"After He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this. Then they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken." - John 2:22


"Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David, as proclaimed by my gospel," - 2 Timothy 2:8


"But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?" - 1 Corinthians 15:12


[each of these verses using "raised [G1453]" and the last verse using also "resurrection [G386]"]



If Christ was "raised from the dead," was He "resurrected"?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.