The absurdity and heresy of Preterism
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I agree with that. Paradise was heaven for the Old Testament saints. All of them went there until Jesus made access to the third heaven, then the third heaven became the NEW HEAVEN for the Old Testament saints.
Do you think there's something wrong with the third heaven right now? Something so terribly wrong with God's dwelling place that God needs to destroy it and make a new one?
Would it not be more likely that when the OT saints were removed from paradise, the great gulf disappeared and HELL ENLARGED HERSELF?
Do you think there's something wrong with the third heaven right now? Something so terribly wrong with God's dwelling place that God needs to destroy it and make a new one?
Would it not be more likely that when the OT saints were removed from paradise, the great gulf disappeared and HELL ENLARGED HERSELF?
Yeah that's a tough one. I don't think "world" means the earth. The end of the world is fascinating to me. I used to believe it would end but now I'm not so sure.
Everything about God is infinite, the number of the children of Israel is like the sand of the sea and can not be numbered. Maybe earth continues on forever, constantly supplying new souls for the kingdom of God. Like I said, this is a fascinating subject to me.
Everything about God is infinite, the number of the children of Israel is like the sand of the sea and can not be numbered. Maybe earth continues on forever, constantly supplying new souls for the kingdom of God. Like I said, this is a fascinating subject to me.
-
1
- Show all
Honestly I see your point 146 but common sense says that paradise and heaven are the same. People die and go to one of two places - the good place or the bad place. IN OT days the good place was called paradise, today the OT saints are in the new good place and when we die we go to the new good place.
Wow you cast me out before you even meet me or even ask me a question. 3 strikes and I'm out? Who are you to speak in judgement of me? I think you're stepping out of you're place, trying to act as if you, YOU are above me and striking me out without 1 question. Who do you think you are? As we say down here, you're getting a bit too big for your britches. I agree with everything you said up there. Are we reborn KNOWING all these thing automatically the exact same for every person? I mean do we grow in Him? Are we learning every day? I hope so, I testify that is how His Spirit works in me, the way I see the world now is 1000x different than I saw it 6 years ago when He changed me, heck my view since last year is different, and I pray this year I grow in Him so much I see things in a whole new way next year. I am not understanding the logic behind this obsession with Eschatology, what you are saying here is just not so. You do not have to believe any of the three "strikes" you listed to be saved. Those things have nothing to do with the gospel.
The gospel is that we are born broken and just as wicked as we could possibly be with no hope at all. Not only no hope of fixing the problem, but in and of ourselves, we don't even have any hope of identifying whats wrong. This is what makes direct revelation absolutely necessary. We are broken beyond any hope of repairing it ourselves so our Creator chooses a people to reveal His goodness and the Law we were created to live in. God tells us the who, what, when, where, why, and how these people will do so and is 100% correct on everything He says. Us still being in the flesh could never live in His law.
So just as He said He would our Lord is born into this world, born of a virgin of the Holy Spirit, not of Adam in sin. Jesus was born and lived exactly and perfectly as we were created to live. So He was always obedient to the Fathers will and NEVER transgressed it. Never sinned. Never earned the wages of death. (I'll come back to this, it's important)
He came and showed how the people had taken Gods law and misused, misunderstood, and completely corrupted Gods word. Jesus told them (us) that we were wrong, and they could not dispute a thing He said, other than claiming He was God. He told us we were wrong and we crucified Him for it. We gave Him the wages He never eared, we killed the flesh our God came in calling us to Him in.
But it was not the flesh that paid the price, oh no, while He hung there, abandon and along our Father poured out His wrath on the only innocent man to walk the face of the earth. All His wrath, all Hid judgement was put on Jesus, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Takes on a whole new meaning from this perspective huh? God did this, Jesus like Isaak lay down His life so the Fathers will be done, so that now by His grace, through belief in, faith, in His Son Jesus Christ, that He died and took your due wrath, your punishment, so that He could justly, without ANY sin going unpunished, grant us Jesus righteousness so that our spirit is resurrected and reconciled to His. This is being born again, it is your spirit, your dead spirit, being resurrected and reconnected to our Creator. Forever filling that hole inside we tried so hard filling with the flesh to no avail, we are made whole to go forth and proclaim His name to all nations.
You do not have to know ANYTHING at all about the end times. Brother you are just wrong about this and just look at the division you declare over this issue. Really just strait up SAD. Think about this man. Is it really worth all the bickering and division, over issues like this.
The gospel is that we are born broken and just as wicked as we could possibly be with no hope at all. Not only no hope of fixing the problem, but in and of ourselves, we don't even have any hope of identifying whats wrong. This is what makes direct revelation absolutely necessary. We are broken beyond any hope of repairing it ourselves so our Creator chooses a people to reveal His goodness and the Law we were created to live in. God tells us the who, what, when, where, why, and how these people will do so and is 100% correct on everything He says. Us still being in the flesh could never live in His law.
So just as He said He would our Lord is born into this world, born of a virgin of the Holy Spirit, not of Adam in sin. Jesus was born and lived exactly and perfectly as we were created to live. So He was always obedient to the Fathers will and NEVER transgressed it. Never sinned. Never earned the wages of death. (I'll come back to this, it's important)
He came and showed how the people had taken Gods law and misused, misunderstood, and completely corrupted Gods word. Jesus told them (us) that we were wrong, and they could not dispute a thing He said, other than claiming He was God. He told us we were wrong and we crucified Him for it. We gave Him the wages He never eared, we killed the flesh our God came in calling us to Him in.
But it was not the flesh that paid the price, oh no, while He hung there, abandon and along our Father poured out His wrath on the only innocent man to walk the face of the earth. All His wrath, all Hid judgement was put on Jesus, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Takes on a whole new meaning from this perspective huh? God did this, Jesus like Isaak lay down His life so the Fathers will be done, so that now by His grace, through belief in, faith, in His Son Jesus Christ, that He died and took your due wrath, your punishment, so that He could justly, without ANY sin going unpunished, grant us Jesus righteousness so that our spirit is resurrected and reconciled to His. This is being born again, it is your spirit, your dead spirit, being resurrected and reconnected to our Creator. Forever filling that hole inside we tried so hard filling with the flesh to no avail, we are made whole to go forth and proclaim His name to all nations.
You do not have to know ANYTHING at all about the end times. Brother you are just wrong about this and just look at the division you declare over this issue. Really just strait up SAD. Think about this man. Is it really worth all the bickering and division, over issues like this.
-
2
- Show all
Nice post Jim. It kind of put things into prospective, doesn't it. You are so right, none of the three things (Lack of) Truth7t7 says is a requirement for salvation. He doesn't even actually cite my views on these 3 which I will do for the record in blue:
1.) The individual denies a future return of Jesus Christ to earth? I believe Christ returned exactly when He said He would, where He said he would, and in exactly the form and manner He said He would to accomplish the things He said He would do. He NEVER said He was returning to earth to reign from some future third Jewish temple. How are my views heretic? If Christ didn't return when He said He would then we have no hope in heaven.
2.) The individual denies the future glorified body of the believer and resurrection on the last day? I believe that when a believer dies today they are immediately taken to heaven and their spiritual body (which has been covered by an earthly flesh "tent") is given the glorified body they earned as their reward per 1 Cor 15. I don't believe as the futurist does that our old earthly flesh body serves any purpose or provides any molecule or DNA to our spiritual body. It is corrupt and cannot enter heaven as Paul taught. It returns to dust as the OT teaches. I don't believe we are divided into our 3 parts, body, soul and spirit and are body-less souls in heaven waiting for some rapture before we can see, touch, hear and smell. I believe the "last day" in question, was the last day of the Mosaic Age before Christ returned to punish unbelieving Israel, just as He said it was and as confirmed by contemporary historians. Multiple NT passages claim that they were in the last days, post the Cross. Futurists claim we are still in those last days, 2000 years later. Many have set dates for Christ's return and when He failed to return on their date, they invented an excuse. This brings shame and humiliation on ALL THE CHURCH as they make ALL OF US look like fools.
3.) The individual denies a future New Heaven and Earth? The individual believes in a current new heaven and earth in which, we believers are citizens. How is that heretic?
1.) The individual denies a future return of Jesus Christ to earth? I believe Christ returned exactly when He said He would, where He said he would, and in exactly the form and manner He said He would to accomplish the things He said He would do. He NEVER said He was returning to earth to reign from some future third Jewish temple. How are my views heretic? If Christ didn't return when He said He would then we have no hope in heaven.
2.) The individual denies the future glorified body of the believer and resurrection on the last day? I believe that when a believer dies today they are immediately taken to heaven and their spiritual body (which has been covered by an earthly flesh "tent") is given the glorified body they earned as their reward per 1 Cor 15. I don't believe as the futurist does that our old earthly flesh body serves any purpose or provides any molecule or DNA to our spiritual body. It is corrupt and cannot enter heaven as Paul taught. It returns to dust as the OT teaches. I don't believe we are divided into our 3 parts, body, soul and spirit and are body-less souls in heaven waiting for some rapture before we can see, touch, hear and smell. I believe the "last day" in question, was the last day of the Mosaic Age before Christ returned to punish unbelieving Israel, just as He said it was and as confirmed by contemporary historians. Multiple NT passages claim that they were in the last days, post the Cross. Futurists claim we are still in those last days, 2000 years later. Many have set dates for Christ's return and when He failed to return on their date, they invented an excuse. This brings shame and humiliation on ALL THE CHURCH as they make ALL OF US look like fools.
3.) The individual denies a future New Heaven and Earth? The individual believes in a current new heaven and earth in which, we believers are citizens. How is that heretic?
-
1
- Show all
I believe the Mosaic Age began to end at the Cross and that there was a 40 year transition period before the Law officially and completely ended. Time was needed for the apostles to evangelize all the Jews of the Diaspora who hadn't heard about Christ. Remember Moses was given the Law in the Wilderness then there was a 40 year transition period before they could enter the Promised Land? The Temple, which was the key instrument or symbol of the Law to the world, had to go before the rest of the world would feel accepted by Christ, our new temple. Back then God was known as "The God of the Jews." To dispel that notion, the temple had to go.
The Jews, in their sacred writings, understood that the age would end when the temple was destroyed, this according to Josephus as he discusses the end of the temple. He understood the end of the age had come.
"But as for that house, God had, for certain, long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages....Now although any one would justly lament the destruction of such a work as this was, since it was the most admirable of all the works that we have seen or heard of, both for its curious structure and its magnitude, and also for the vast wealth bestowed upon it, as well as for the glorious reputation it had for its holiness; yet might such a one comfort himself with this thought, that it was fate that decreed it so to be, which is inevitable, both as to living creatures, and as to works and places also. However, one cannot but wonder at the accuracy of this period thereto relating; for the same month and day were now observed, as I said before, wherein the holy house was burnt formerly by the Babylonians. Now the number of years that passed from its first foundation, which was laid by king Solomon, till this its destruction, which happened in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, are collected to be one thousand one hundred and thirty, besides seven months and fifteen days; and from the second building of it, which was done by Haggai, in the second year of Cyrus the king, till its destruction under Vespasian, there were six hundred and thirty-nine years and forty-five days."
The Jews, in their sacred writings, understood that the age would end when the temple was destroyed, this according to Josephus as he discusses the end of the temple. He understood the end of the age had come.
"But as for that house, God had, for certain, long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages....Now although any one would justly lament the destruction of such a work as this was, since it was the most admirable of all the works that we have seen or heard of, both for its curious structure and its magnitude, and also for the vast wealth bestowed upon it, as well as for the glorious reputation it had for its holiness; yet might such a one comfort himself with this thought, that it was fate that decreed it so to be, which is inevitable, both as to living creatures, and as to works and places also. However, one cannot but wonder at the accuracy of this period thereto relating; for the same month and day were now observed, as I said before, wherein the holy house was burnt formerly by the Babylonians. Now the number of years that passed from its first foundation, which was laid by king Solomon, till this its destruction, which happened in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, are collected to be one thousand one hundred and thirty, besides seven months and fifteen days; and from the second building of it, which was done by Haggai, in the second year of Cyrus the king, till its destruction under Vespasian, there were six hundred and thirty-nine years and forty-five days."
I don't understand that kind of thinking. Christianity wasn't new to them, all of the OT saints were Christians, they had the gospel preached to them and they believed it and they died in Christ without receiving the promises.
Anyway I know you disagree on this so moving on, I would like to ask you a question. Why do you not accept the resurrection of the OT saints as "the resurrection"?
Anyway I know you disagree on this so moving on, I would like to ask you a question. Why do you not accept the resurrection of the OT saints as "the resurrection"?
-
1
- Show all
I think a lot of those OT saints didn't fully understand what the Messiah would do when He came. Most thought He was going to lead them out of Roman captivity and sit on some throne, like David. Very few thought He was going to die on the Cross for remission of sins. This is why Christ went down to Hades to minister to them before His resurrection. okay, moving on...
We are taught in Dan 12 and Acts 24 that there will be two resurrections, one for the just, one for the unjust. Rev 20 seems to suggest that the unjust would be after the thousand years. Regardless, I just don't think that passage in Matthew where some of the graves opened up and saints came out and went into the city is the main resurrection of the just. That verse is too random with no other supportive passage. Paul spoke of the resurrection as a future event and that those who taught of it as past hurt the faith of some. Besides, since I believe the resurrection of the just was to occur on the final day of the Mosaic Age, it should be in the 66-70 AD time frame. In 66 Nero reportedly witnessed what could have been the resurrection as recorded by Casius Duo. Then we have St. Ignatius in his letter to the Magnesians stating the Christ returned and raised His disciples from the dead. Since they weren't dead at the Cross, it had to be later.
We are taught in Dan 12 and Acts 24 that there will be two resurrections, one for the just, one for the unjust. Rev 20 seems to suggest that the unjust would be after the thousand years. Regardless, I just don't think that passage in Matthew where some of the graves opened up and saints came out and went into the city is the main resurrection of the just. That verse is too random with no other supportive passage. Paul spoke of the resurrection as a future event and that those who taught of it as past hurt the faith of some. Besides, since I believe the resurrection of the just was to occur on the final day of the Mosaic Age, it should be in the 66-70 AD time frame. In 66 Nero reportedly witnessed what could have been the resurrection as recorded by Casius Duo. Then we have St. Ignatius in his letter to the Magnesians stating the Christ returned and raised His disciples from the dead. Since they weren't dead at the Cross, it had to be later.
Amen brother, talk about nicely stated, but you want to know where He is pointing my heart now? To 1 Cor.
10 I appeal to you, brothers,[a] by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
EVERYWHERE it tells us we are to love each other, we are to be KNOWN by our love for each other. I just want to glorify our King together. Of course this isn't always a "nice neat thing", but man I think we can really do so much better. Especially here in the body. I don't know how many of these arguments that I've been in that when we really start talking and breaking it down it turns out that we just took two different paths to the same place. That we can debate all day long and honestly reach the same conclusion in the end. I can't lie, I do like the hard conversations. The ones that really make you dig in and think about His word, by His Spirit. I grow the most through these kinds of things, mostly through my mistakes though honestly.
I might have to research deeper into something because I just don't feel certain enough to declared it. Or the bigger issue and the one I'm talking about is how I speak to people. Face to face is SO much better, but we do so much communicating through text and that is a whole new ballgame. I even made a comment Friday I thought was kind of light hearted and funny, something in person I could have made charming, but rereading it today it comes off kind of disrespectful and that sucks. But I learn from it and grow better, by His power and Spirit I am made more like Him.
I have believed the pre trib stuff, while saved for 100% sure. But as I've grown, read deeper into His word, by His will of course, He has open my eyes to things that show me how much better EVERYTHING lines up so much better, to the point I could not deny it. Then as He works in me it just grows to the point that knowing that this view is called ridiculous, and hated. Most of all it's held by the vast minority on here on CC particularly. Which let me say for the record is just fine of course. I go to a AoG Pentecostal church. Trust me they are waiting for the rapture baby! I still believe this is where God put me, it was actually my family church when my great grand mother and father were in charge (of the family), but anyway when the church I was attending said it was going to merge with another church, on of course I had never heard of, to me just a random church. Well once I was finally able to get my dad to come, as soon as he got out of the truck in the parking lot he said "I used to run up and down these pews when I was a little boy". That was when I first learned this was the church my family went to. Wow I'm tearing up even thinking about this, but He brought me home and I didn't even know. My dad even knew the oldest gentleman there, who was still there from before 40+ years earlier. ALL Glory to our King Jesus!!!
I just want to be 1 body, I don't so much care what you believe about the end times, I trust God to lead you to all truth, just as I trust Him to lead me to all truth. I want to unite focusing less on these in house little squabbles, but join together in love and boldness and start speaking out against these crazy things happening in our country, we need the church to step up now. We are His children and we are called to proclaim His name to all nations. Amen(let it be)!!!!!!
10 I appeal to you, brothers,[a] by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
EVERYWHERE it tells us we are to love each other, we are to be KNOWN by our love for each other. I just want to glorify our King together. Of course this isn't always a "nice neat thing", but man I think we can really do so much better. Especially here in the body. I don't know how many of these arguments that I've been in that when we really start talking and breaking it down it turns out that we just took two different paths to the same place. That we can debate all day long and honestly reach the same conclusion in the end. I can't lie, I do like the hard conversations. The ones that really make you dig in and think about His word, by His Spirit. I grow the most through these kinds of things, mostly through my mistakes though honestly.
I might have to research deeper into something because I just don't feel certain enough to declared it. Or the bigger issue and the one I'm talking about is how I speak to people. Face to face is SO much better, but we do so much communicating through text and that is a whole new ballgame. I even made a comment Friday I thought was kind of light hearted and funny, something in person I could have made charming, but rereading it today it comes off kind of disrespectful and that sucks. But I learn from it and grow better, by His power and Spirit I am made more like Him.
I have believed the pre trib stuff, while saved for 100% sure. But as I've grown, read deeper into His word, by His will of course, He has open my eyes to things that show me how much better EVERYTHING lines up so much better, to the point I could not deny it. Then as He works in me it just grows to the point that knowing that this view is called ridiculous, and hated. Most of all it's held by the vast minority on here on CC particularly. Which let me say for the record is just fine of course. I go to a AoG Pentecostal church. Trust me they are waiting for the rapture baby! I still believe this is where God put me, it was actually my family church when my great grand mother and father were in charge (of the family), but anyway when the church I was attending said it was going to merge with another church, on of course I had never heard of, to me just a random church. Well once I was finally able to get my dad to come, as soon as he got out of the truck in the parking lot he said "I used to run up and down these pews when I was a little boy". That was when I first learned this was the church my family went to. Wow I'm tearing up even thinking about this, but He brought me home and I didn't even know. My dad even knew the oldest gentleman there, who was still there from before 40+ years earlier. ALL Glory to our King Jesus!!!
I just want to be 1 body, I don't so much care what you believe about the end times, I trust God to lead you to all truth, just as I trust Him to lead me to all truth. I want to unite focusing less on these in house little squabbles, but join together in love and boldness and start speaking out against these crazy things happening in our country, we need the church to step up now. We are His children and we are called to proclaim His name to all nations. Amen(let it be)!!!!!!
I didn't think you believed in a literal 1000 year reign, I don't. And if you read these verses as exactly as they are written, BOTH groups are the 1st resurrection. The resurrected saints who had not worshipped the beast AND the rest of dead that lived not again until the thousand years were fininshed... BOTH of these are the first resurrection.
(Rev 20:4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(Rev 20:5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(Rev 20:6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(Rev 20:4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(Rev 20:5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(Rev 20:6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
-
1
- Show all
I hate to break these up into separate responses but I think it makes things easier to keep up with.
Did you notice that Daniel 12:2 says exactly the same as Matthew, it says MANY of them, not ALL shall awake.
(Dan 12:2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Did you notice that Daniel 12:2 says exactly the same as Matthew, it says MANY of them, not ALL shall awake.
(Dan 12:2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Thanks for sharing this testimony Jim. I think what you said about unity and love for each other is extremely important and I couldn't agree more. Yes, I engage in too much bickering, or at least I think that's how I'm being perceived. I am not trying to create division but there is division in the church over this issue. Personally I think Futurists are bringing a lot of discredit to the Whole Church when they set dates and twist the Word to fit their view. They would say we are dividing the church because we don't go along with the majority view. So what to do? Give in to something we know is wrong? Or just be silent so as to not divide? For 150 years they've been preaching the rapture and "do not get left behind" stuff yet the world goes on and a generation dies and a new generation picks up the cry. They live out their lives to learn Hitler wasn't the antiChrist and if WWII was the tribulation, Christ didn't return. Each generation repeats and yet Christ's return must be any day now. I digress.
You are right that in the bigger scheme of things, we would be much better off showing our love for each other and unity in the important things than bickering over issues of little importance, no importance to salvation. We don't want another reformation. Even though Martin Luther was right on the issue of indulgences, he divided the church. My family hails from Germany and many of the early pioneers who came to America were Lutheran or Quakers. The 500 year war between Catholics and Protestants need not be repeated over these minor disagreements. I go to a "rapture" church too but at least they don't talk about it every Sunday.
You are right that in the bigger scheme of things, we would be much better off showing our love for each other and unity in the important things than bickering over issues of little importance, no importance to salvation. We don't want another reformation. Even though Martin Luther was right on the issue of indulgences, he divided the church. My family hails from Germany and many of the early pioneers who came to America were Lutheran or Quakers. The 500 year war between Catholics and Protestants need not be repeated over these minor disagreements. I go to a "rapture" church too but at least they don't talk about it every Sunday.
-
1
- Show all