Questions about JW’s

.....yes.
In rev 5 the lamb walks over to the Father and takes the scroll out of the Fathers hand.


.....you were sayin?


And yes it is in heaven.
Thank you for noticing that

....which flows perfectly with both of them standing there.

Thank you

I'm not getting doctrine from them, I get my doctrine from the scriptures, it just so happens that the early church fathers also professed the same understanding that Jesus is the Wisdom of God as I find in the scriptures.

Biker said he looks to the early church fathers for accurate knowledge of truths since they existed close to the time it was written. I merely showed them what they wrote and asked him to affirm what they said.

"Let Us" "Our Image" "Our Likeness"

Greetings NOV25!

We can nip this in bud before it gets going. That said, Adam's state is irrelevant in regards to whether or not JW are of Christ, which is the real issue.

JW's believe that Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer, which would make Jesus a created being and would make any other Biblical topic a moot point. That in itself disqualifies them as being true believers right out of the gate. Paul said that there are Christ's many and gospels many and the JW's are believing in one of those other Christ's and other gospels.

They claim that He is not God and even reinterpreted John 1:1 to say "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was [a] god." They added the "a god" in support of their belief that Jesus is not God. However, that is only one scripture that reveals that Jesus is God. There are many, many, many more scriptures that proclaim Jesus as being God. We could start with Isaiah 7:14

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgine will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call Him Immanuel."

Immanuel means, 'With us is God,' i.e. Jesus is God in the flesh.

Regarding this I John 4:2 says "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God." The meaning of "Jesus Christ has come in the flesh" is that He existed with God and as God before He became a human being.

After Jesus' resurrection, He appeared the first time to His disciples and Thomas was not there. And when the disciples told him that they had seen the Lord, he did not believe them. The following week Jesus appeared to them again and this time Thomas was there and said to Him, "Thomas, look at my hands and my feet. Puts your hand in my side. Stop doubting and believe!" And Thomas said, "My Lord and My God." Jesus said, "Thomas, you believe because you have seen. Blessed are those who believe but have not seen. Here we have Thomas calling Jesus God. Now if Jesus was not God, then the Lord would have rebuked him for saying so.

We also have God the Father calling Jesus God:

But about the Son He (God the Father) says:

“Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever, and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.

You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;

therefore God, Your God, has anointed You above Your companions with the oil of joy.”

We also have the Jews recognizing that Jesus was calling himself God by His claim to them:

My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

At this, the Jews again picked up stones to stone Him. But Jesus responded, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone Me?”

“We are not stoning You for any good work,” said the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because You, who are a man, declare Yourself to be God.”

The Jews understood that by Jesus saying that "I and the Father are one" that He was proclaiming to be God. Here is another example:

"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone. It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age, as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

My point in all this is that, you don't have to bother going around and around with the JW regarding any other Biblical topics, because they're exposed as a false right out of the gate by believing that Jesus is a created being. You don't need to go any further than that. Jesus as God is exactly the issue that should be brought up when they come to our doors, otherwise you will get caught up in a bunch of other scriptural topics, as well as the removal of the word Jehovah. Everything else after that is a moot point. Consider the following:

"When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said, “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! (Rev.1:17-18)

"These are the words of the First and the Last, who died and returned to life."

"“Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

The Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, are characteristics that both the Father and Son share.

If you ask a JW who the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last is, they will tell you it is God the Father alone as Jehovah. Then all you have to do is simply read them Rev.1:17-18 which identifies Jesus as being the First and the Last as the One who died and came back to life.

WRONG!

They are not Capitalized in the BIBLE so they are not about GOD!

Just like for creative 111

22 The Lord acquired me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old.
23 From the distant past I was enthroned, from the beginning, of those that preceded the earth.

^
the word "ME" is not Capitalized to show this is talking about Solomon, not Jesus!


LOWER CASE NEVER REPRESENTS GOD!

Who is the "Us" and "Our" below?

Genesis 1:26KJV
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Just like for creative 111

22 The Lord acquired me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old.
23 From the distant past I was enthroned, from the beginning, of those that preceded the earth.

^
the word "ME" is not Capitalized to show this is talking about Solomon, not Jesus!


LOWER CASE NEVER REPRESENTS GOD!

I told you, God has 7 Councils in the Tanakh.

Psalms 82 is one of those Councils and God calls the Angles (Sons of God)!

1 (A Psalm of Asaph.) God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Look at verse 6:
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

We know Angels are not literally GOD, but see How God calls His Council Members (little g) gods and Children of the most High.
Notice High is capitalize to indicate GOD!

Biker you need to calm down. Firstly your premise is false; you said "I am tired of reading IGNORANCE and False Doctrines". Are you aware that in both the original Hebrew and Greek that ALL words are capitalised! There are no uncapitalised words in the original languages, it is only MODERN DAY SCHOLARS when translating the Greek or Hebrew to English capitalise or uncapitalse words as this is how English is written. Therefore it is down to the modern-day scholar to determine if he/she thinks it necessary to do so based on their understanding of BOTH doctrine and grammar.

Clearly the only ignorant one here is you, your premise if false therefore your appeal to the "me" in V22 holds no weight.

Secondly, you COMPLETELY ignored my point towards your statement "This is why I go to the Church Fathers. They know better than us both." YOU appealed to what the Church Father believed and wrote about, I then showed you what the CF wrote about and believed, you then proceed to ignore my point and pretend you're blind and yet... I have the bad theology and am ignorant...very rich coming from you Biker.

Do you accept what the CF wrote regarding Jesus being the Wisdom of God? Yay or Nay? Stop running away from this argument.

Biker you need to calm down. Firstly your premise is false; you said "I am tired of reading IGNORANCE and False Doctrines". Are you aware that in both the original Hebrew and Greek that ALL words are capitalised! There are no uncapitalised words in the original languages, it is only MODERN DAY SCHOLARS when translating the Greek or Hebrew to English capitalise or uncapitalse words as this is how English is written. Therefore it is down to the modern-day scholar to determine if he/she thinks it necessary to do so based on their understanding of BOTH doctrine and grammar.

Clearly the only ignorant one here is you, your premise if false therefore your appeal to the "me" in V22 holds no weight.

Secondly, you COMPLETELY ignored my point towards your statement "This is why I go to the Church Fathers. They know better than us both." YOU appealed to what the Church Father believed and wrote about, I then showed you what the CF wrote about and believed, you then proceed to ignore my point and pretend you're blind and yet... I have the bad theology and am ignorant...very rich coming from you Biker.

Do you accept what the CF wrote regarding Jesus being the Wisdom of God? Yay or Nay? Stop running away from this argument.

And to show proof even in this verse of Capitalization equals God:

Look at the word "ME," it's lower case, but look at word LORD and His ways (Both Capitalized indicating these 2 words mean GOD).

So clearly, this verse is 100% when referring to "me," is all about Solomon, before God ever spoke the first words of Creation into place.

I showed you with Hebrew where your ASSUMPTIONS are once again WRONG!

From the actual Tanakh



From the Hebrew:
26 And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth."
כווַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֔ים נַֽעֲשֶׂ֥ה אָדָ֛ם בְּצַלְמֵ֖נוּ כִּדְמוּתֵ֑נוּ וְיִרְדּוּ֩ בִדְגַ֨ת הַיָּ֜ם וּבְע֣וֹף הַשָּׁמַ֗יִם וּבַבְּהֵמָה֙ וּבְכָל־הָאָ֔רֶץ וּבְכָל־הָרֶ֖מֶשׂ הָֽרֹמֵ֥שׂ עַל־הָאָֽרֶץ:



Show me where every word is Capitalized?