"Not by works" - false!

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,889
2,534
113
Free will and election are not opposed to one another, this is our illusion, Arminianism and Calvinism do not see the full picture, when you see people pit fight Scriptures, it's time to run away.

We don't pray to skew events, this is again an illusion. We pray because we are part of God's organism and unless there are flesh motives, our prayers are aligned with God. Thinking from that perspective our prayers for salvation of others maybe always have effect because it's the Spirit praying in us, they just may not play out immediately when we expect it. But a baby is also being knit in the womb long before it is detectable or born. So basically we pray because it's what we do. A snake bites, lion roars, we pray.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
From about age 10 or 11 I was convicted by the Spirit of being a sinner.
By the time I was 15 I had become accountable for my sin and I knew I did not belong to God and would not go to be with him when I died. And I knew I could not change my behavior and could do nothing about my lostness.
This continued for a few years until God began to strongly call me to salvation through faith in Christ.
I resisted the call for a few years and finally caved in and asked God to forgive my sins.
The Spirit came into me and I was saved and transformed into a new creation that's been growing up into Christ and out of sin ever since.
All sins were forgiven at the cross... it accepting that forgiveness, having trust in, belief in JESUS who had made it possible for all sins to be forgiven is how we are redeemed.
That is the Gospel. An act of contrition is not the Gospel.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,910
29,289
113
justice.

but this question is asked from the position of sitting in judgement over God, again.

He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and hardens whom He will harden.
i will not think to question Him.
We are all at/from birth -in the natural state- enemies to God. . .
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,910
29,289
113
Free will and election are not opposed to one another, this is our illusion, Arminianism and Calvinism do not see the full picture, when you see people pit fight Scriptures, it's time to run away.

We don't pray to skew events, this is again an illusion. We pray because we are part of God's organism and unless there are flesh motives, our prayers are aligned with God. Thinking from that perspective our prayers for salvation of others maybe always have effect because it's the Spirit praying in us, they just may not play out immediately when we expect it. But a baby is also being knit in the womb long before it is detectable or born. So basically we pray because it's what we do. A snake bites, lion roars, we pray.
Some people pray to ask God for things, and we are to ask, not so much for "things" but to bring ourselves into greater alignment with the will of God :)
 
May 22, 2020
403
127
43
It's really unfortunate that you have no understanding of the Holy Spirit. You believe that your own mind is your guide, while those of us who believe are guided by the Holy Spirit.

If I go outside and decide to believe there is no sky I am deceiving myself, just as you are deceiving yourself. Your sophistry will get you nowhere, either with other believers or with God.
@posthuman uses scripture to support his premises; you use empty human words alone. That is rebuttal enough.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
A statement with no scripture to validate it. An empty wind.
Been there done that with you already with you.
There is no point.
Where are your friends LOL.. they give up.:p
 
May 22, 2020
403
127
43
It is not possible to tell a person that God loves them under the Reformed view and be honest.
Nor is it possible to state that Christ died for them and be honest.
Your statement is not completely accurate.
Reformed theology would state who God loves; all those with FAITH. You would have to read James for evidence of said FAITH.
By the same reckoning one could show who God died for.


Of course I know that I am not a liar because "limited atonement" and "God hates all unbelievers, not their sin but them" is not biblical.
An opinion that you have not presented scripture to sustain.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Did you really mean to use the word 'contrition', or did you mean to use the word 'attrition'?
Contrition... feeling sorrow, certainly Godly remorse is part of the new life in Christ but...... it is by grace through faith that saves.
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
For me, predestination is a train moving on the railway to its predestination and the elect are those who get on the train.
And that train is Christ.
The train has always existed.

Election -- how you get on the train
Elect/ Chosen -- the train and all who are in it.
Predestination -- it's purpose and destination have already been determined beforehand.
Foreknowledge -- God knows ahead of time who will, in the end, comprise the train.
 
May 22, 2020
403
127
43
if your understanding of 'reformed' is correct, then apparently not only am i not a calvinist, i am not 'reformed' either.
Aside: I am not sure what difference there is between Calvinism and Reformed theology. I know they are similar.

Reformed theology, unlike any other protestant theology, is very organized and documented. There are two major creeds that summarize their opinions:
The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith http://www.grbc.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/The-1689-Baptist-Confession-of-Faith.pdf
The 1647 Westminster Confession https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/westminster-confession-faith/

The Baptist document was based on the Presbyterian document. They are similar. The documents are concise and use extensive scripture to backup their theology.

From the posts you written that I have read, you may be REFORMED.

The following is (I've been told) classical Calvinism (again, close to REFORMED thinking)

God’s Eternal Decrees
Whatsoever comes to pass in time was decreed unconditionally and unalterably before.
Whatsoever comes to pass in time, comes to pass because it was decreed before time.
Nothing can be, but what was decreed; and what was decreed cannot fail to be; and it cannot fail to be, because decreed.



Election and Reprobation
God decreed from eternity, the fall of Adam and the ruin or fall of his posterity in him.
That, regarding man as fallen, he elected some men, whose names and number were designated, unto everlasting life.
That those thus predestinated were so predestinated, unchangeably and unconditionally, without any reference whatever to their works or character.
That for these, and these only, he provided a Savior and all the means necessary to procure their salvation without any conditions on their part.

That the persons thus unchangeably designed cannot possibly perish, do what they may, but will be irresistibly drawn to Christ and to justification, adoption, and sanctification.
With respect to the rest, whose names and number are also definitely fixed, that he passed them by in their sins and predestinated them unto destruction.
That they were thus passed and predestinated from eternity, and so were ordained to destruction before they were born, of the good pleasure of God and to the glory of his sovereign justice.
That for these he never did provide a Savior, and that consequently they could not be saved, do what they might.
That those reprobated in no respect differed from those elected, and the one class were elected and the other class reprobated of the mere sovereign pleasure of God without any respect to any difference in them whatever.


Atonement
Calvinists believe that the death of Christ is of sufficient value, intrinsically, to make atonement for all the sins of the whole world had it been so intended.
That resulting from his death are many benefits and blessings to all men--the reprobate in common with the elect.
That though his death is thus sufficient to be an atonement for the world, yet it is not an atonement for all because he did not die for all, but simply and only for the elect.

Effectual Calling
That up to the moment of effectual call--regeneration--a man cannot cease from sin; he has not the power to do so.
None but the elect ever are effectually called--regenerated.
When the elect are effectually called, they cannot help but yield; they have no power to resist.
This effectual call is sent upon the elect without any conditions or preparation on their part.


Perseverance
Persons once regenerated may fall into grievous sins, and continue therein for a time indefinite.
They cannot totally fall away, but, however sinful they may become, will continue to be children of God.
They cannot finally perish, but must necessarily come to eternal life. Such is the doctrine of the Presbyterian Church, as taught by their Confession of Faith and standard authors. To it we find many and, to us insuperable objections. Read and judge for yourselves.


The Heathen
The Gospel alone is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth. We are persuaded there is no salvation without Christ; no communion of adult persons with Christ, but by faith in him; no faith in Christ without the knowledge of him; no knowledge but by the preaching of the Gospel; no preaching of the Gospel in the works of nature.


The Will
Calvinists believe that every volition, or choice, is the necessary result of an influence exerted upon the mind, through the agency of motives. In other words, they believe that such is the constitution of the human mind, that it cannot will at all without a motive, and that, when it does will, it cannot will otherwise under the mind.

Covenants
Calvinists use Covenant Theology to interpret scripture.

I am probably getting close to 10,000 characters. I can post what else I have in case you are interested.
 
May 22, 2020
403
127
43
Part 2 - Classical Calvinism
Looks like this was written by John Sanders who is semi-peligian (Open Theist)
Aside: Of course, there is always some variations among individuals as to what "Classical Calvinism" is.

“According to Classical theism divine perfection means that God is absolutely independent of creation and cannot be dependent upon a creature in any respect. The motivation for this view arises out of a particular conception of perfection as applied to God. That is, if it is good to have qualities such as knowledge, will, power, and love, then what must a being that is perfect in these qualities be like? It is argued that God is perfect in the sense that there can be no possible improvement or potential for change since any change in God could only be a change for the worse.

From this conception of God a family of attributes arise: God is simple, immutable, impassible, timeless, necessary, pure act, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, and wholly good. Together, these combine to affirm that there is no change of any kind in God nor is God dependent upon anything other than himself. Simplicity means that there is no genuine differentiation in God. God is identical with his properties such that God does not have, for instance, omnipotence and omniscience, as distinct parts. As pure act, God has no potential for change of any kind as this would mean God was less than complete. As immutable, God cannot change in any respect including thoughts, intentions, or emotions. Being impassible, nothing external to God, such as creatures, can affect God in any way. God is timeless in that there is no before or after for God, only an eternal present.

It is clear then that a timeless and wholly immutable being cannot change whatsoever including changes in thoughts, will, or emotions. Augustine said: “only what does not only not change but also cannot at all change falls most truly. . . under the category of being” On the Trinity, 5.2-3). If God were passible (affected by creatures) then God would be changeable and less than self-sufficient. If God had changing emotions or could suffer then God would be less than perfect. So God cannot be affected or influenced in any way by creatures. Our prayers of petition serve as instruments by which God brings about what he has ordained but our prayers never affect what God has eternally willed to bring about. It is impossible that our prayers have any influence on God’s decisions.

Since the divine plan is unchanging, God exercises meticulous providence by specifically ordaining each and every event to occur. God tightly controls everything so that whatever happens, down to the smallest detail, is exactly what God wanted to happen. God has a meticulous blueprint for everything that happens in history, including evil and suffering. All events are ordained by God for good reasons that remain hidden from us. The divine will cannot fail or be thwarted in any detail. God never takes risks for whatever we do is precisely what God wanted us to do. We cannot act in such a way that God would fail to get exactly what he desired in every detail. In salvation this leads to the doctrines of unconditional election and irresistible grace. God’s decision to save an individual cannot be dependent in any way upon humans, as that would deny the doctrines of immutability, impassibility and self-sufficiency. Regarding evil, this view repudiates the Freewill defense and affirms instead the soul-making theodicy.

Regarding omniscience, there can be no change in God’s knowledge from before to after. Consequently, omniscience must include exhaustive definite foreknowledge of future contingent events (human actions). The entire future is completely definite or certain for God. God knows the future as what will actually happen not as what might possibly happen. God knows the future as certain because God determines what the future will be. God’s knowledge of what we will do in the future cannot be causally dependent upon us since that would mean God was not impassible or self-sufficient.

Finally, many Classical theists affirm compatibilistic freedom for humans in that you are free so long as you act on your desires, but your desires are determined. In this conception of freedom God can perfectly guarantee that humans do exactly what God desires in every circumstance. All God has to do is ensure that our strongest desire in any instance is what God wants. Whatever we do is precisely what God wanted us to do in that instance.” John Sanders
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
Contrition... feeling sorrow, certainly Godly remorse is part of the new life in Christ but...... it is by grace through faith that saves.
You keep hearing arguments that aren't being made.
But I have learned that's part of the difficulty when dealing with people who have been indoctrinated (in every negative sense of the word).
Not only do you have to deal with the erroneous teaching itself that people have been indoctrinated with, but also what their teachers have told them is the argument is they are resisting, which they often get incorrect.

But anyway, you won't be saved without being contrite.
Being contrite isn't the agent of salvation itself.
But it is the way the soil has to be prepared before it will receive and retain the word of God in salvation.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,910
29,289
113

Pulie

Active member
May 26, 2020
216
94
28
i think you may have missed this part of what i had said:


i am not saying man has no free will and i am not saying man has no opportunity to exercise it.
i am saying that the exercise of our free agency to make choices does not result in our choosing light rather than darkness.


without Christ, none of us follow God. none of us love Him, none of us seek Him, none of us believe Him, none of us choose Him. we all use our 'free will' for evil. we're poisoned with sin. this is the whole reason we need the Savior. this is the reason we pray 'help my unbelief' and it's the reason we pray for the salvation of others -- if it isn't necessary for God to step in and open a person's eyes and heart to Him, but man on his own is capable of and even likely to 'choose to believe' ((not a Biblical phrase)) why in the world would you pray for someone? is such a prayer not a request for God to 'coerce faith' ??
Amen🙌🏾

We are all humbled and are fully aware of that.

Fallen men cannot accept salvation apart from God. Our inability does not remove our conscience and a sense of right and wrong.

We can be religious and philanthropic. We can also make right decisions but all our righteous works are seem as filthy rags. Fallen men do not perform their righteous works to the glory of God.

They seek God for the benefits that He has to offer(happiness, success etc).

We are not possessed when we recieve salvation but are fully aware of what is happening to us. God does not believe on our behalf but His grace operates in us and gives us the ability to believe in Him.
 

Pulie

Active member
May 26, 2020
216
94
28
And that train is Christ.
The train has always existed.

Election -- how you get on the train
Elect/ Chosen -- the train and all who are in it.
Predestination -- it's purpose and destination have already been determined beforehand.
Foreknowledge -- God knows ahead of time who will, in the end, comprise the train.
Thank you for unfolding it. Was hoping you would expound on it, and you did just that 🙌🏾🙌🏾.
 
May 22, 2020
403
127
43
@Pulie Thank you for unfolding it. Was hoping you would expound on it, and you did just that 🙌🏾🙌🏾

Beware of any statement that is not backed up with scripture, no matter how appealing.

SOLA SCRIPTURA