Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians

You run from presented truth

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... claim of a (Pre-Trib) rapture in 1 These 4:14-17, verses used without comparison.

How in the world could any rational person claim this resurrection isn't the (LAST DAY) as seen below.

Let's just believe the Bible then ok?
Over a doctrine.
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7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us. This will take place at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels,
8 when he takes vengeance with flaming fire on those who don’t know God and on those who don’t obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Why do you say that we use only 1Th4:14-17 "WITHOUT COMPARISON" when I've repeatedly stated that Paul speaks of the "event" of "our Rapture" something like TEN TIMES in these 2 epistles (NOT merely in 1Th4:17!)

But I never claimed exactly 2000 years of tribulation nor 2000+ years, you did. You made that my claim for me (saying I was claiming a 2000 year gap between verse 29 and verse 30). So there was no point delving into the details of how exactly 1,260 years of tribulation were fulfilled in these last 2000 years if my overall premise of the tribulation taking longer than 3.5 literal years is what we were discussing.

Below is specifically how I see tribulation playing out over history. But first, there are a few important points we probably should consider:

1. No timeframe either of us supposes is against the scripture found in Matthew 24 because Matthew 24 doesn't give any numbers whatsoever. Neither does Luke 21. They just state that there is a timeframe, marked by the AOD.

2. The only passages that give specific numbers for this timeframe are found in Daniel and Revelation. So we need to look there.

3. Daniel 12 is given three numbers:

1290 "days"
1260 "days" (time, times, and a half)
1335 "days"

...given by the man in linen.

He tells Daniel that from the time the DAILY SACRIFICE is taken away until the abomination of desolation is setup there will be 1290 "days".

Daniel would've understood that the daily sacrifice was the continual offering made in the temple, which had ended during the siege of Babylon in around roughly 606BC. Daniel was already exiled so he saw the daily sacrifice first taken away...but if 1290 days are literal then the AOD was setup in 603BC (???). No this doesn't work. So the measurement must be "each prophetic day is a literal year"...but is there biblical precedent for this principle? Yes.

- In Numbers 14 the Almighty made Israel wander the desert 40 years for *each day* the spies were sent into Canaan. They were sent for 40 days.

- In Ezekiel 4 the prophet was commanded to lay on his left side for 390 days, followed by his right side for 40 days "a day for each year" each half of the kingdom would be punished.

- Israel wandered for 40 years in the desert after being baptized in the red sea. The Messiah, who is called the "firstborn" of the Almighty (just like Israel was), went into the wilderness to fast for 40 days after baptism.

That's three witnesses establishing the principle as true. Day for the person, year for the nation.

So 1290 years after 606BC = 685AD, and this is roughly the date the Dome Of The Rock began construction (with a range of a few years). It's an abominable structure setup in the Holy place preventing any Temple from being rebuilt there, leaving the land desolate of a temple.

4. Continuing with the day for a year principle, 1260 years after 685AD or so = 1945AD.

1945 is the year of the atomic bomb. Nuclear power is generated by exciting Uranium atoms; literally by "shaking" them.

"...and the powers of heaven will be shaken."

The Greek word translated as "heaven" is "Ouranos", where we get the word Uranus, from which the word Uranium is derived.

So the powers of Uranium also would be shaken immediately after the tribulation of those days.

5. In 1948, 3 years later the world outlawed slavery and established the State of Israel.

So these are significant dates in human history.

6. Continuing with the day for a year principle, 1335 years after 685AD = 2020 (with a range of a few years). The man in linen said "blessed is anyone who reaches the 1335 day"...but again, there's a range of about 3 years so the "blessed year" could be this year or 2023?

Either way, from my studies the very next event is the literal appearance of the Son of Man and His gathering.

Totally agree. A pre-TRIB rapture is pretty much boilerplate doctine insofar as the Scriptures are concerned. It seems as if people keep forgetting that according to 1 Corinthians 15, the rapture is a mystery that has been newly disclosed by revelation to Paul.

You cannot conflate the rapture with any Scriptures that you please. Only those that deal with this specific topic. If you keep that in focus you're going to come up with all the right answers.

Totally agree. A pre-TRIB rapture is pretty much boilerplate doctine insofar as the Scriptures are concerned. It seems as if people keep forgetting that according to 1 Corinthians 15, the rapture is a mystery that has been newly disclosed by revelation to Paul.

You cannot conflate the rapture with any Scriptures that you please. Only those that deal with this specific topic. If you keep that in focus you're going to come up with all the right answers.

in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end

I do believe it is a display of God's wrath upon closer inspection of the scriptures you provided, but still don't think that's a good enough reason to believe in a pre-trib rapture. The wrath isn't for Christians, though they will be persecuted during the great tribulation, meaning Christians will be here for it.

"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." Revelation 20:4

As far as I can tell that's consistent with the rest of scripture on the topic.

I am assuming that since there is explicit indication that the 144,000 are excluded from the fifth trumpet judgment, they are also excluded from the first four, and the following the judgments.
And the two witnesses enjoy divine protection in the sense that they have a divine offensive capabilities. All attacks on the two witnesses fail until such time is God allows them to be killed.

It is the last day. For the Church that is. You do realize that there are multiple phases resurrections for different groups correct?

My friend, by answer above, it tells me that you have not studied the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment and thereforef have no idea of the severity and their magnitude. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet (a fourth and a third) over half the worlds population will have been killed. These are God's plagues of wrath and will affect all of the inhabitants on the earth during that time. You're having the church who have been waiting for the blessed hope, watching and anticipating the Lord's appearing and are having them punished right along with the wicked. The coming wrath of God is not the same as the trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would have because of their faith. This is God's coming wrath, which no longer rests upon the believer and that because Jesus already satisfied it on behalf of every believer. Think about what I am saying here. What is it going to take to get you to understand this scriptural principle? If the Lord was to send his church through His wrath, what difference would there be between the righteous and the wicked? According to you there would be no difference!

Those above is referring to the great tribulation saints, not the church, which will have been resurrected and caught up several years earlier prior to God's wrath. After Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, the beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire, Satan is sealed in the Abyss for a thousand years and those saints who will have died during the great tribulation are those who be resurrected in Rev.20:4-6.

You guys continually come in here with only partial scriptural information, which you base your conclusions on and begin to teach the same.

i agree with most of this but nowhere does it say that we are all changed at the same time

...i believe it is the last trumpet and we are being changed right now but in each persons own time. Not all at the same time. We are getting ready to be "caught up" in the clouds.

You it is funny how I cam to know what the rapture was it all began with my first vision. I was a brand new believer and I have always to this day and even then wanted to have just one day with him ever since I read the verse better is one day in your courts and then heard the song of it. I wanted it badly just to spend one day with him to get to know him to be with him I had the entire day planned outXD but one day in my room I sat down in front of my bed and asked him can I even have this day with you? no sooner had I asked that an angel appeared I even remember the exact spot he stood and said yes you can! suddenly I was ascending upwards the feeling of it cannot even be described it words and I had no clue what was going on I just knew I was going to Jesus and as soon as it began it ended. I had no clue what was going on so I came on cc asked about it, I didn't recieve any answers expect someone saying to be careful because the enemy can appear as an angel of light but as time went by I heard about something called the rapture and then I was like so that is what was happening.

The main argument for the rapture is that it isn't spoken of in the bible but is the harpazo the catching away there are many verses that don't come right out and say the rapture as that is a man made word for it but it does speak of the event and in great detail. Regardless if people believe in it or not or see it as a made up doctrine we who are in him know in our spirits because the spirit speaks all truths and we have a built in spiritual radar and when we know how to use it and listen to it then our spirits confirm what he says we don't need evidence or proof because inside the truth and evidence is spoken to us and we recieve it.

There are now multiple (Last Day's) for different groups?

There is one future (Last Day) as seen below, (The Day Of The Lord) at the return of Jesus Christ to Earth, Dissolved By Fire!

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Here we go again

The vast "Majority" of christians believe in a future (rapture/catching up) of the believer

The argument on this forum appears to be, not all christians believe in dispensationalism's (Pre-Trib) position.

When talking about (rapture/catching up. There are basically 3 positions.

I believe and teach of the Post-Trib position.

1.) Pre-Trib
2.) Mid-Trib
3.) Post- Trib

You reference only the 144k are sealed in their foreheads.

Then you attach verses thinking you show the church on earth protected from the wrath.

The church is in heaven. That is easily proven.

Trying to make that sealed concept apply is like saying Jesus nor paul knew what they are talking about.

You need the dead rising after the living,and noah and lot taken away AFTER those judgements.

Your deal is impossible.

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For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

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The above could not be any clearer! Those who have died in Christ, will rise first immortal and glorified. After they have been raised, then we who are still alive will be changed and caught up with them.

The dead in Christ is referring every believer who has died since the beginning of the church up until the resurrection takes place. Immediately after that, those in Christ who are still alive when the resurrection takes place, will be changed immortal and glorified and will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. This information shows this to be a group event and which takes place almost simultaneously.



Really?! While it is true that we are taking on the characteristics of Christ, i.e. the fruits of the Spirit, the change that is going to take place at our gathering, will be from mortal to immortal. And it is not a gradual change, but immediate one. I can tell you from personal experience from being in Christ for over 45 years, that I have not gradually taken on any immortal characteristics, as my body is still aging and has aches and pains, etc.

What I would suggest to you, is to copy and paste I Thessalonians 4:13-18 and I Corinthians 15:51-53 and read them over and over and over and over ………. Until you understand what you are reading and what is being said. Because what you are suggesting is not what the scripture teaches, at all. According to your belief, you would have people waiting in the air for 2000 years, because it says that we will be caught up together. That's a group event, not individual.

So far down the road of make believe I'm astonished.

And to put icing on the cake a 2022-2023 return of Jesus Christ to earth

A wishful "Fairy Tale"