Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians

[Truth7t7]

Every point above is your conjecture.

You are following the wrong teachers.

Carrying one illogical thought on into the next one.
All conjecture without a single supporting verse

Let's analyze (Dispensationalism's) claim of a (Pre-Trib) rapture in 1 These 4:14-17, verses used without comparison.

We see below the second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens and the resurrection of the believer in Jesus Christ.

God's word (CLEARLY TEACHES) that the resurrection takes place on the (LAST DAY) And yes this means (THE LAST DAY)

As Is Clearly Seen, Any Claim Of A (Pre-Trib) rapture is 100% false, This Is (THE LAST DAY)

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17KJV
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

 

[Yahshua]

You take a future literal event in a 3.5 year tribulation, and you (symbolize) it's fulfillment in Jews tribulation from 70AD to present.

Your 2,000 year let's skip and jump through the centuries tribulation, was invented to falsely justify 70AD fulfillment of Daniels Abomination seen in Matthew 24:15 and a future second coming.

Daniels Abomination, The Great Tribulation, and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ in the clouds of heaven are "Future Events" Unfulfilled.

70Ad - temple destroyed; 1mil Jews killed. 97k enslaved

115AD - thousands more killed in Egypt, Cyprus, Cyrenaica

132-136AD - 580k killed; Jews banned from Jerusalem and Judea entirely; land renamed Palestine

259AD - Jewish community destroyed

339AD - Marriage between Christian and Jew forbidden and illegal throughout Roman Empire, punishable by death. Social interaction with Jew forbidden

351AD - book burnings of Jewish texts; towns across Empire destroyed. Thousands more killed

380-388AD - writings and pronouncements against Jews published; synagogues burned down

399AD - Gold confiscated by Western Emperor

415 - 100k expelled from Alexandria; synagogue confiscated in Antioch; building any more are prohibited

418 - Jew forced to convert to Christianity or be expelled from their new home; synagogue burned

425 - Jewish leader executed

429 - money for schools confiscated by Eastern Emperor

439 - Jews restricted by law from holding official positions and offices

451 - Jewish leaders executed

469 - Half Jewish population in Isfahan executed

529 - Civil rights taken away; Hebrew forbidden

547 - another massacre

592 - entire population in Antioch punished because of 1 jew breaking the law

598 - syngogues taken and converted to Churches

608-610 - another massacre all across the empire

615 - Jews considered heretics and "oath" created to never believe a Jew in court (adopted all throughout Europe in 1555)

624 - 600 Jews decapitated in Medina

629 - More Jews killed. Those who survived fled to Egypt or the mountains

634 - forced to pay taxes for being Jews

630 - expelled from Arabia

681 - antisemitism laws drafted

692 - using the same public bath rooms prohibited

694 - any land confiscated; children age 7 are taken from families and raised Christian slaves

-----

I don't have time to post everything but haven't even scratched the surface. This is just up to the 7th century. I haven't gotten to the inquisitions yet. Feel free to see the full list of suffering, century by century by century, following the link below.

It wasn't a walk in the park or just the occasional/sporadic suffering. This was constant massacre and injustice from one century to the next.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_antisemitism

Let's reason together. I ask you to set aside your doctrine for just a moment and entertain the following question for a second. Then feel free to reclaim your doctrine.

Luke 21 says the time of great distress includes Jews being killed, expelled from their land, and scattered into every nation. Matthew 24 says this will be the WORST time ever for them.

Now which situation sounds more like the worst timeframe of tribulation ever?

A) 3.5 years of Jews being systematically killed

B) 1,260 years of Jews being systematically killed


A) 3.5 years of Jews being expelled from their homes

B) 1,260 years of Jews being expelled from their homes

They were indicted by the Christian world as "Murderers of the Christ" and were hated for it.

How can we overlook what recorded history says and suggest a future 3.5 years will somehow be worst than the last 2000 years for them?

 

[iamsoandso]

^ @iamsoandso ,

Consider the following:


From Gal1:8 , per BibleHub -

2. beside, beyond, i. e. metaphorically,

a. equivalent to contrary to: παρά τήν διδαχήν, Romans 16:17
[...]

παῥ ὁ, contrary to that which, i. e. at variance with that which, Galatians 1:8f



Gal1:8 - "[...preached unto you] contrary to [/at variance with] that which WE have preached unto you"

____________

[quoting Wm Kelly on Rev14, from BibleHub (my note: Matt25, when speaking of when they either will have AIDED/BLESSED "the least of these My brethren" or DID NOT do so, is referring to that which will take place on the earth FOLLOWING "our Rapture")]

"Another consideration perhaps may help some as connected with this and confirmatory of it, founded on the last part of Matthew 25, where all the nations are called up before the Son of Man when He sits as King on the throne of His glory. Surely this cannot be in heaven but on earth: how could "all the nations" be seen on high? It will be remembered that He tells those whom He designates as the "sheep" that, inasmuch as they did what they had done to His "brethren," it was really to Him; as on the other hand the insults fell on Him which were aimed at them. These acts of kindness, or of hostile indifference, will be owned by the Lord when He judges the quick [Matt25:31-34 context is about those "STILL-LIVING" at His "return" to the earth]. It is no use for people to call it the general judgment, or the judgment of our works. It has nothing to do with us who believe on Him now. The one principle before us in this scripture is His dealing with the living Gentiles, or all nations according to their ways with His brethren. To act aright then will require real power of God through grace. The pressure against His messengers at that time will be enormous. If any receive them well, it will be from faith, however small may be the measure of their faith. That to honour His brethren is virtually to honour Himself, they had not themselves known. When they stand in presence of the King, how astonished they are that He should regard what was done to the messengers of His gospel in the last days as if done to Himself! When men are raised from the dead, they know as they are known; but these are the nations alive in flesh. Compare Matthew 24:14.

"Certainly these Gentiles were wrought in by divine grace, yet evidently they are far from what is called "intelligent." How often must one beware of making too much of this! What a constant snare it is to slip into unconscious or inconsiderate criticism! Men are apt to give themselves an exaggerated importance on the score of their knowledge. God attaches a far higher value to the heed paid to the Lord Himself, and to those He sends out. It is a crucial test. Then [meaning, at that time] most of all it will be so, because these messages will go forth to the nations on the earth before the end comes. Growingly lifted up and self-satisfied, the nations are summoned by Jewish messengers (poor and contemptible in most eyes), who will solemnly proclaim the kingdom just at hand [again, see Matt24:14]; for the King is coming in person to judge the quick apart from and before the judgment of the dead. Some souls here and there will receive them [these messengers/servants], not only treating them in love, but this because they receive the message. The power of the Spirit alone gives them faith. None less than God Himself inclines their heart. Accordingly the Lord here refers to its reception, with the grace that accompanied it, as evidence of their heeding Himself in the persons of His brethren, the messengers.

"This is similar to, if not the same as, the everlasting gospel. It is called by Matthew the "gospel of the kingdom." The "gospel of the kingdom" and the "everlasting gospel" are substantially like. In the Revelation it is thus described, because it was always in the purpose of God, through the bruised Seed of the woman, to crush the foe and to bless man himself here below. This Matthew, in accordance with his design, calls rather the "gospel of the kingdom," because Christ is going to be King of a kingdom prepared from [apo] the foundation of the world. S. John, it would seem, calls it an "everlasting gospel," because it is in contrast with special messages from time to time (Hebrews 4:2), as well as with all that had to do with man as he is here below. At this most corrupt time [i.e. the tribulation period] the suited glad tidings will be sent forth, and certain souls will receive it by God's grace. Thus the second scene in the chapter is the proclamation of an everlasting gospel to those settled down on the earth, and to the nations, etc., as the first section was the separation of a remnant of Jews to the Lamb on mount Zion. Both point, as do other visions of the book, to the various operations of God's goodness, and to the different groups of blessing He will form. Is it incredible that God should thus work in honour of Christ the Lamb? How good is the God we adore!"

--William Kelly, Commentary on Revelation 14

[end quoting; bold, underline, and bracketed inserts mine]

So to you is it the exact same gospel Paul preached and referred to in Galatians or is it different? The current gospel we now have is either everlasting or it will be replaced by an everlasting gospel .

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Let's analyze (Dispensationalism's) claim of a (Pre-Trib) rapture in 1 These 4:14-17, verses used without comparison.
We see below the second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens and the resurrection of the believer in Jesus Christ.
God's word (CLEARLY TEACHES) that the resurrection takes place on the (LAST DAY) And yes this means (THE LAST DAY)
As Is Clearly Seen, Any Claim Of A (Pre-Trib) rapture is 100% false, This Is (THE LAST DAY)
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17KJV
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Your whole viewpoint hinges on whether the phrase "the last day" speaks of "a singular 24-hr day" or it doesn't.

I believe it does not.


Consider the following:

Acts 17:31 - [not merely "a singular 24-hr day"] -

Berean Study Bible -
"For He has set [/established] a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

Berean Literal Bible -
"because He set [/established] a day in which He is about to [mello - sure/certain to] judge the world in righteousness by a man whom He appointed, having provided a guarantee to all, having raised Him out from the dead."

New American Standard Bible -
"because He has fixed [/established] a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

King James Bible -
"Because he hath appointed [/established] a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."


[ ^ "fixed/appointed/established" (a day IN WHICH) - "Usage: trans: (a) I make to stand, place, set up, establish, appoint" - G2476 - histemi]



Psalm 9:8kjv -
"And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness." [i.e. govern... not merely "a singular 24-hr day"]



Psalm 96:13 -

"Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth."


[this actually STARTS back when He will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13) by opening the FIRST SEAL in Rev5:6, at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (1:1) time-period, aka the 7-yr trib, aka the "IN THE NIGHT"/"DARK"/"DARKNESS" aspect OF the entire long "Day of the Lord" time period (which earthly time-period INCLUDES: the 7-yr trib [the "IN THE NIGHT"/"DARK"/"DARKNESS" aspect], His Second Coming to the earth [the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect], AND the 1000-yr MK age [the "reign...GLORIOUSLY" aspect]--ALL THREE of these)]
____________


Then notice:

1 Corinthians 4:3a - [note: the words in BOLD (in the verse below) are, "or by man's [G442 - anthrópinos/anthrōpinēs - adj] day [G2250 - hémera/hēmeras]," in the Greek...

From BibleHub: "Paul, in allusion to the phrase ἡμέρα κυρίου, uses the expression ἀνθρωπίνῃ ἡμέρα for a tribunal of assembled judges on the day of trial (A. V. man's judgment) (cf. the German Landtag,Reichstag), 1 Corinthians 4:3." ]


New International Version -
"I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court [...]"


New Living Translation -
"As for me, it matters very little how I might be evaluated by you or by any human authority. [...]"


English Standard Version -
"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. [...]"


Berean Study Bible -
"I care very little, however, if I am judged by you or by any human court. [...]"


Berean Literal Bible -
"But to me, it is the smallest matter that I be examined by you or by a human court. [...]"


New American Standard Bible -
"But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; [...]"


New King James Version -
"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. [...]"


King James Bible -
"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: [...]"


Christian Standard Bible -
"It is of little importance to me that I should be judged by you or by any human court. [...]"


Contemporary English Version -
"it doesn't matter to me if I am judged by you or even by a court of law. [...]"


Good News Translation -
"Now, I am not at all concerned about being judged by you or by any human standard; [...]"


Holman Christian Standard Bible -
"It is of little importance to me that I should be evaluated by you or by any human court. [...]"


International Standard Version -
"It is a very small thing to me that I should be examined by you or by any human court. [...]"


NET Bible -
"So for me, it is a minor matter that I am judged by you or by any human court. [...]"


New Heart English Bible -
"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you, or by man's judgment. [...]"


Aramaic Bible in Plain English -
"But to me this is a slight matter that I am judged by you or by any man. [...]"


GOD'S WORD® Translation -
"It means very little to me that you or any human court should cross-examine me. [...]"


New American Standard 1977 -
"But to me it is a very small thing that I should be examined by you, or by any human court; [...]"


King James 2000 Bible -
"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: [...]"


American King James Version -
"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: [...]"


American Standard Version -
"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: [...]"


Douay-Rheims Bible -
"But to me it is a very small thing to be judged by you, or by man's day; [...]"


Darby Bible Translation -
"But for me it is the very smallest matter that I be examined of you or of man's day. [...]"


English Revised Version -
"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: [...]"


Webster's Bible Translation -
"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you, or by man's judgment: [...]"


Weymouth New Testament -
"I however am very little concerned at undergoing your scrutiny, or that of other men; [...]"


World English Bible -
"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you, or by man's judgment. [...]"


Young's Literal Translation -
"and to me it is for a very little thing that by you I may be judged, or by man's day, [...]"


____________

...keeping in mind also what I'd put in past posts about the "THEN" word in 1Cor15:24, which word is a SEQUENCE word ONLY, with NO time element attached with it... so that it is saying "THEN [sequentially] the end," NOT "THEN [immediately] the end" "For He must reign until..." (and note that the first two items LISTED are some 2000 yrs apart, so there is NO PROBLEM at all if the second set of LISTED items are 1000 yrs apart... and this is consistent with what we see in other related passages).

 

[Truth7t7]

70Ad - temple destroyed; 1mil Jews killed. 97k enslaved

115AD - thousands more killed in Egypt, Cyprus, Cyrenaica

132-136AD - 580k killed; Jews banned from Jerusalem and Judea entirely; land renamed Palestine

259AD - Jewish community destroyed

339AD - Marriage between Christian and Jew forbidden and illegal throughout Roman Empire, punishable by death. Social interaction with Jew forbidden

351AD - book burnings of Jewish texts; towns across Empire destroyed. Thousands more killed

380-388AD - writings and pronouncements against Jews published; synagogues burned down

399AD - Gold confiscated by Western Emperor

415 - 100k expelled from Alexandria; synagogue confiscated in Antioch; building any more are prohibited

418 - Jew forced to convert to Christianity or be expelled from their new home; synagogue burned

425 - Jewish leader executed

429 - money for schools confiscated by Eastern Emperor

439 - Jews restricted by law from holding official positions and offices

451 - Jewish leaders executed

469 - Half Jewish population in Isfahan executed

529 - Civil rights taken away; Hebrew forbidden

547 - another massacre

592 - entire population in Antioch punished because of 1 jew breaking the law

598 - syngogues taken and converted to Churches

608-610 - another massacre all across the empire

615 - Jews considered heretics and "oath" created to never believe a Jew in court (adopted all throughout Europe in 1555)

624 - 600 Jews decapitated in Medina

629 - More Jews killed. Those who survived fled to Egypt or the mountains

634 - forced to pay taxes for being Jews

630 - expelled from Arabia

681 - antisemitism laws drafted

692 - using the same public bath rooms prohibited

694 - any land confiscated; children age 7 are taken from families and raised Christian slaves

-----

I don't have time to post everything but haven't even scratched the surface. This is just up to the 7th century. I haven't gotten to the inquisitions yet. Feel free to see the full list of suffering, century by century by century, following the link below.

It wasn't a walk in the park or just the occasional/sporadic suffering. This was constant massacre and injustice from one century to the next.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_antisemitism

Let's reason together. I ask you to set aside your doctrine for just a moment and entertain the following question for a second. Then feel free to reclaim your doctrine.

Luke 21 says the time of great distress includes Jews being killed, expelled from their land, and scattered into every nation. Matthew 24 says this will be the WORST time ever for them.

Now which situation sounds more like the worst timeframe of tribulation ever?

A) 3.5 years of Jews being systematically killed

B) 1,260 years of Jews being systematically killed


A) 3.5 years of Jews being expelled from their homes

B) 1,260 years of Jews being expelled from their homes

They were indicted by the Christian world as "Murderers of the Christ" and were hated for it.

How can we overlook what recorded history says and suggest a future 3.5 years will somehow be worst than the last 2000 years for them?

With respect

Your claim of continuous fulfillment of Matthew 24:21 through the centuries is against the very context of the Scripture

You claim 2,000+ years for fulfillment, and the Scripture states except the days are shortened, 2,000 years and waiting isnt shortened.

Your claim of 2,000+ years for fulfillment is more laughable than the Dispy's 70th week of Daniel floating in the air for 2,000 years and waiting, both are farces.

Matthew 24:21-22KJV
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

[cv5]

Your correct, I'm post trib, no Millennium.

cv5 there will be a future command to build in Jerusalem to Messiah this starts the 70 weeks of Daniel, the 70th week ends when the future (Man of Sin/Antichrist) is revealed proclaiming to be God Messiah, as the 3.5 year tribulation starts.

The Two Witnesses in Rev 11 stand before the antichrist (day for day) bringing all plagues as seen in Revelation as often as they will.

The Church is present on earth as tge 144,000 are added, preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ divinely protected by God from these plagues, a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt.

When the 6th vial is poured out in Rev 16:12 Satan is loosed from his prison into this tribulation to gather the world's nations to the final battle.

The two witnesses are killed, lie in the streets, as the world's armies are in Israel/Meggiddo, 3.5 days pass as the witnesses are called up to heaven, as the final hours of earths existence unfolds as Jesus returns to battle "Immediately after the tribulation" as the resurrection/catching up takes place, as the heavebns and earth are "Dissolved" by the Lords fire in judgement

Eternity begins in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, Judgement Complete

Give it time. You will figure it out eventually.

 

[Truth7t7]

Your whole viewpoint hinges on whether the phrase "the last day" speaks of "a singular 24-hr day" or it doesn't.

I believe it does not.


Consider the following:

Acts 17:31 - [not merely "a singular 24-hr day"] -

Berean Study Bible -
"For He has set [/established] a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

Berean Literal Bible -
"because He set [/established] a day in which He is about to [mello - sure/certain to] judge the world in righteousness by a man whom He appointed, having provided a guarantee to all, having raised Him out from the dead."

New American Standard Bible -
"because He has fixed [/established] a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

King James Bible -
"Because he hath appointed [/established] a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."


[ ^ "fixed/appointed/established" (a day IN WHICH) - "Usage: trans: (a) I make to stand, place, set up, establish, appoint" - G2476 - histemi]



Psalm 9:8kjv -
"And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness." [i.e. govern... not merely "a singular 24-hr day"]



Psalm 96:13 -

"Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth."


[this actually STARTS back when He will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13) by opening the FIRST SEAL in Rev5:6, at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (1:1) time-period, aka the 7-yr trib, aka the "IN THE NIGHT"/"DARK"/"DARKNESS" aspect OF the entire long "Day of the Lord" time period (which earthly time-period INCLUDES: the 7-yr trib [the "IN THE NIGHT"/"DARK"/"DARKNESS" aspect], His Second Coming to the earth [the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect], AND the 1000-yr MK age [the "reign...GLORIOUSLY" aspect]--ALL THREE of these)]
____________


Then notice:

1 Corinthians 4:3a - [note: the words in BOLD (in the verse below) are, "or by man's [G442 - anthrópinos/anthrōpinēs - adj] day [G2250 - hémera/hēmeras]," in the Greek...

From BibleHub: "Paul, in allusion to the phrase ἡμέρα κυρίου, uses the expression ἀνθρωπίνῃ ἡμέρα for a tribunal of assembled judges on the day of trial (A. V. man's judgment) (cf. the German Landtag,Reichstag), 1 Corinthians 4:3." ]


New International Version -
"I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court [...]"


New Living Translation -
"As for me, it matters very little how I might be evaluated by you or by any human authority. [...]"


English Standard Version -
"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. [...]"


Berean Study Bible -
"I care very little, however, if I am judged by you or by any human court. [...]"


Berean Literal Bible -
"But to me, it is the smallest matter that I be examined by you or by a human court. [...]"


New American Standard Bible -
"But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; [...]"


New King James Version -
"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. [...]"


King James Bible -
"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: [...]"


Christian Standard Bible -
"It is of little importance to me that I should be judged by you or by any human court. [...]"


Contemporary English Version -
"it doesn't matter to me if I am judged by you or even by a court of law. [...]"


Good News Translation -
"Now, I am not at all concerned about being judged by you or by any human standard; [...]"


Holman Christian Standard Bible -
"It is of little importance to me that I should be evaluated by you or by any human court. [...]"


International Standard Version -
"It is a very small thing to me that I should be examined by you or by any human court. [...]"


NET Bible -
"So for me, it is a minor matter that I am judged by you or by any human court. [...]"


New Heart English Bible -
"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you, or by man's judgment. [...]"


Aramaic Bible in Plain English -
"But to me this is a slight matter that I am judged by you or by any man. [...]"


GOD'S WORD® Translation -
"It means very little to me that you or any human court should cross-examine me. [...]"


New American Standard 1977 -
"But to me it is a very small thing that I should be examined by you, or by any human court; [...]"


King James 2000 Bible -
"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: [...]"


American King James Version -
"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: [...]"


American Standard Version -
"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: [...]"


Douay-Rheims Bible -
"But to me it is a very small thing to be judged by you, or by man's day; [...]"


Darby Bible Translation -
"But for me it is the very smallest matter that I be examined of you or of man's day. [...]"


English Revised Version -
"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: [...]"


Webster's Bible Translation -
"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you, or by man's judgment: [...]"


Weymouth New Testament -
"I however am very little concerned at undergoing your scrutiny, or that of other men; [...]"


World English Bible -
"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you, or by man's judgment. [...]"


Young's Literal Translation -
"and to me it is for a very little thing that by you I may be judged, or by man's day, [...]"


____________

...keeping in mind also what I'd put in past posts about the "THEN" word in 1Cor15:24, which word is a SEQUENCE word ONLY, with NO time element attached with it... so that it is saying "THEN [sequentially] the end," NOT "THEN [immediately] the end" "For He must reign until..." (and note that the first two items LISTED are some 2000 yrs apart, so there is NO PROBLEM at all if the second set of LISTED items are 1000 yrs apart... and this is consistent with what we see in other related passages).

Your claim (Last Day) dosent mean (Last Day) is a joke, a fairy tale, complete denial of God's truth presented.

Let's analyze (Dispensationalism's) claim of a (Pre-Trib) rapture in 1 These 4:14-17, verses used without comparison.

We see below the second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens and the resurrection of the believer in Jesus Christ.

God's word (CLEARLY TEACHES) that the resurrection takes place on the (LAST DAY) And yes this means (THE LAST DAY)

As Is Clearly Seen, Any Claim Of A (Pre-Trib) rapture is 100% false, This Is (THE LAST DAY)

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17KJV
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ John 6:40 speaks of "persons"... but the immediately preceding verse (6:39) speaks of "things" (and is not merely repeating-himself):

"Now this is the will of the One having sent Me, that all that He has given Me, I should lose none of it, but will raise it up in the last day."


[things, speaking of His "the throne of His glory" (an earthly throne, Matt25:31-34; Matt19:28 [Acts 3:21], etc), His reign, His governance, etc...]





Again, see the post I made on Hosea 5:14-6:3 "after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day" (not "a singular 24-hr day").

And Peter said we are to "be not ignorant OF THIS ONE THING"

 

[Runningman]

The second coming of Jesus Christ is (Post Trib)

I didn't authenticate your false claim of a (Pre-Trib) rapture.

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Yes, the scripture is quite clear on a post tribulation rapture so that's the doctrine I go with. The only way I see it's possible to justify a pre-trib rapture is jumping around to verses all over the Bible to form a justification for interpreting it that way.

The post-trib rapture doesn't require any interpretation or Bible gymnastics because the Bible clearly lays out what a normal person reading the Bible should expect, especially in Matthew 24 as you cited.

I don't normally spend a lot of time arguing this because I don't believe it's a matter of salvation to be wrong about when the rapture happens, it just means some people won't be prepared which could lead to a downfall.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Then notice:
1 Corinthians 4:3a - [note: the words in BOLD (in the verse below) are, "or by man's [G442 - anthrópinos/anthrōpinēs - adj] day [G2250 - hémera/hēmeras]," in the Greek...
From BibleHub: "Paul, in allusion to the phrase ἡμέρα κυρίου, uses the expression ἀνθρωπίνῃ ἡμέρα for a tribunal of assembled judges on the day of trial (A. V. man's judgment) (cf. the German Landtag,Reichstag), 1 Corinthians 4:3." ]
[...]
King James Bible -
"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: [...]" [...]

With that in view ^ , consider:

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to [sure/certain to] come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth." [aka "the Day of the Lord" and its JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth (i.e. the "SEALS, TRUMPETS, VIALS" [in the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period] and "the man of sin... IN HIS TIME"...)]


Recall what the "24 elders" say in Rev5:9 "hast redeemed US" and this is AFTER a "searching judgment" as indicated by the word "was found" in 5:4 ! [and recall, "sealed unto the day of redemption" and "redemption of the purchased-possession"]

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, the scripture is quite clear on a post tribulation rapture so that's the doctrine I go with. The only way I see it's possible to justify a pre-trib rapture is jumping around to verses all over the Bible to form a justification for interpreting it that way.

The post-trib rapture doesn't require any interpretation or Bible gymnastics because the Bible clearly lays out what a normal person reading the Bible should expect, especially in Matthew 24 as you cited.

I don't normally spend a lot of time arguing this because I don't believe it's a matter of salvation to be wrong about when the rapture happens, it just means some people won't be prepared which could lead to a downfall.

I agree a pre-trib position isn't a matter of salvation, just deception through false teachings

 

[Nehemiah6]

Let's analyze (Dispensationalism's) claim of a (Pre-Trib) rapture in 1 These 4:14-17, verses used without comparison.

No. Let's focus on the Second Coming, which has nothing whatsoever to do with 1 Thess 4:13-18. Quite obviously, you failed to read what I posted about the Second Coming. So either you wish to learn the truth, or you wish to promote a lie.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I agree a pre-trib position isn't a matter of salvation, just deception through false teachings

It is ironic when the person who is deceived, and trying to deceive others, speaks of deception.

 

[Truth7t7]

No. Let's focus on the Second Coming, which has nothing whatsoever to do with 1 Thess 4:13-18. Quite obviously, you failed to read what I posted about the Second Coming. So either you wish to learn the truth, or you wish to promote a lie.

You run from presented truth

Fact: 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 is the "Last Day" resurrection of the believer.

How in the world could any rational person claim this resurrection isn't the (LAST DAY) as seen below.

Let's analyze (Dispensationalism's) claim of a (Pre-Trib) rapture in 1 These 4:14-17, verses used without comparison.

We see below the second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens and the resurrection of the believer in Jesus Christ.

God's word (CLEARLY TEACHES) that the resurrection takes place on the (LAST DAY) And yes this means (THE LAST DAY)

As Is Clearly Seen, Any Claim Of A (Pre-Trib) rapture is 100% false, This Is (THE LAST DAY)

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17KJV
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You run from presented truth
Fact: 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 is the "Last Day" resurrection of the believer.
How in the world could any rational person claim this resurrection isn't the (LAST DAY) as seen below.

Paul, in 1Cor15:51-54, says specifically, "THIS corruptible" [i.e. the DEAD *IN* Christ] and "THIS mortal" [i.e. the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto..." (who are also "*IN* Christ")]... meaning, this passage is speaking of a very specific grouping, i.e. "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"

[...then 2Cor5:2-4 speaks specifically of the latter of these two, the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" part, when it speaks of the "clothed upon" issue, which occurs at "our Rapture" point in time (for the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto"--the "STILL-ALIVE" at the time of it); Recall also what I'd put, about the "A KIND [G5100 - a certain kind] of firstfruit" James 1:18 ]

 

[Yahshua]

With respect

Your claim of continuous fulfillment of Matthew 24:21 through the centuries is against the very context of the Scripture

You claim 2,000+ years for fulfillment, and the Scripture states except the days are shortened, 2,000 years and waiting isnt shortened.

Your claim of 2,000+ years for fulfillment is more laughable than the Dispy's 70th week of Daniel floating in the air for 2,000 years and waiting, both are farces.

Matthew 24:21-22KJV
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

But I never claimed exactly 2000 years of tribulation nor 2000+ years, you did. You made that my claim for me (saying I was claiming a 2000 year gap between verse 29 and verse 30). So there was no point delving into the details of how exactly 1,260 years of tribulation were fulfilled in these last 2000 years if my overall premise of the tribulation taking longer than 3.5 literal years is what we were discussing.

Below is specifically how I see tribulation playing out over history. But first, there are a few important points we probably should consider:

1. No timeframe either of us supposes is against the scripture found in Matthew 24 because Matthew 24 doesn't give any numbers whatsoever. Neither does Luke 21. They just state that there is a timeframe, marked by the AOD.

2. The only passages that give specific numbers for this timeframe are found in Daniel and Revelation. So we need to look there.

3. Daniel 12 is given three numbers:

1290 "days"
1260 "days" (time, times, and a half)
1335 "days"

...given by the man in linen.

He tells Daniel that from the time the DAILY SACRIFICE is taken away until the abomination of desolation is setup there will be 1290 "days".

Daniel would've understood that the daily sacrifice was the continual offering made in the temple, which had ended during the siege of Babylon in around roughly 606BC. Daniel was already exiled so he saw the daily sacrifice first taken away...but if 1290 days are literal then the AOD was setup in 603BC (???). No this doesn't work. So the measurement must be "each prophetic day is a literal year"...but is there biblical precedent for this principle? Yes.

- In Numbers 14 the Almighty made Israel wander the desert 40 years for *each day* the spies were sent into Canaan. They were sent for 40 days.

- In Ezekiel 4 the prophet was commanded to lay on his left side for 390 days, followed by his right side for 40 days "a day for each year" each half of the kingdom would be punished.

- Israel wandered for 40 years in the desert after being baptized in the red sea. The Messiah, who is called the "firstborn" of the Almighty (just like Israel was), went into the wilderness to fast for 40 days after baptism.

That's three witnesses establishing the principle as true. Day for the person, year for the nation.

So 1290 years after 606BC = 685AD, and this is roughly the date the Dome Of The Rock began construction (with a range of a few years). It's an abominable structure setup in the Holy place preventing any Temple from being rebuilt there, leaving the land desolate of a temple.

4. Continuing with the day for a year principle, 1260 years after 685AD or so = 1945AD.

1945 is the year of the atomic bomb. Nuclear power is generated by exciting Uranium atoms; literally by "shaking" them.

"...and the powers of heaven will be shaken."

The Greek word translated as "heaven" is "Ouranos", where we get the word Uranus, from which the word Uranium is derived.

So the powers of Uranium also would be shaken immediately after the tribulation of those days.

5. In 1948, 3 years later the world outlawed slavery and established the State of Israel.

So these are significant dates in human history.

6. Continuing with the day for a year principle, 1335 years after 685AD = 2020 (with a range of a few years). The man in linen said "blessed is anyone who reaches the 1335 day"...but again, there's a range of about 3 years so the "blessed year" could be this year or 2023?

Either way, from my studies the very next event is the literal appearance of the Son of Man and His gathering.

 

[cv5]

70Ad - temple destroyed; 1mil Jews killed. 97k enslaved

115AD - thousands more killed in Egypt, Cyprus, Cyrenaica

132-136AD - 580k killed; Jews banned from Jerusalem and Judea entirely; land renamed Palestine

259AD - Jewish community destroyed

339AD - Marriage between Christian and Jew forbidden and illegal throughout Roman Empire, punishable by death. Social interaction with Jew forbidden

351AD - book burnings of Jewish texts; towns across Empire destroyed. Thousands more killed

380-388AD - writings and pronouncements against Jews published; synagogues burned down

399AD - Gold confiscated by Western Emperor

415 - 100k expelled from Alexandria; synagogue confiscated in Antioch; building any more are prohibited

418 - Jew forced to convert to Christianity or be expelled from their new home; synagogue burned

425 - Jewish leader executed

429 - money for schools confiscated by Eastern Emperor

439 - Jews restricted by law from holding official positions and offices

451 - Jewish leaders executed

469 - Half Jewish population in Isfahan executed

529 - Civil rights taken away; Hebrew forbidden

547 - another massacre

592 - entire population in Antioch punished because of 1 jew breaking the law

598 - syngogues taken and converted to Churches

608-610 - another massacre all across the empire

615 - Jews considered heretics and "oath" created to never believe a Jew in court (adopted all throughout Europe in 1555)

624 - 600 Jews decapitated in Medina

629 - More Jews killed. Those who survived fled to Egypt or the mountains

634 - forced to pay taxes for being Jews

630 - expelled from Arabia

681 - antisemitism laws drafted

692 - using the same public bath rooms prohibited

694 - any land confiscated; children age 7 are taken from families and raised Christian slaves

-----

I don't have time to post everything but haven't even scratched the surface. This is just up to the 7th century. I haven't gotten to the inquisitions yet. Feel free to see the full list of suffering, century by century by century, following the link below.

It wasn't a walk in the park or just the occasional/sporadic suffering. This was constant massacre and injustice from one century to the next.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_antisemitism

Let's reason together. I ask you to set aside your doctrine for just a moment and entertain the following question for a second. Then feel free to reclaim your doctrine.

Luke 21 says the time of great distress includes Jews being killed, expelled from their land, and scattered into every nation. Matthew 24 says this will be the WORST time ever for them.

Now which situation sounds more like the worst timeframe of tribulation ever?

A) 3.5 years of Jews being systematically killed

B) 1,260 years of Jews being systematically killed


A) 3.5 years of Jews being expelled from their homes

B) 1,260 years of Jews being expelled from their homes

They were indicted by the Christian world as "Murderers of the Christ" and were hated for it.

How can we overlook what recorded history says and suggest a future 3.5 years will somehow be worst than the last 2000 years for them?

Your scope is too narrow. The great tribulation is the wrath of God (and the Lamb) upon the entire world, with the exception of a group of Israelites (possibly all of them) who are granted to divine escape and providence per Rev 12:6 and 14-16. Jesus makes it clear that unless those days were shortened no flesh would be saved. This includes animals, birds insects men and sea creatures etc etc.......all flesh.

Rev 16:3
Then the second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it became blood as of a dead man; and every living creature in the sea died.

This has no historical precedent of course.

 

[cv5]

You run from presented truth

Fact: 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 is the "Last Day" resurrection of the believer.

How in the world could any rational person claim this resurrection isn't the (LAST DAY) as seen below.

Let's analyze (Dispensationalism's) claim of a (Pre-Trib) rapture in 1 These 4:14-17, verses used without comparison.

We see below the second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens and the resurrection of the believer in Jesus Christ.

God's word (CLEARLY TEACHES) that the resurrection takes place on the (LAST DAY) And yes this means (THE LAST DAY)

As Is Clearly Seen, Any Claim Of A (Pre-Trib) rapture is 100% false, This Is (THE LAST DAY)

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17KJV
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

It is the last day. For the Church that is. You do realize that there are multiple phases resurrections for different groups correct?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Let's analyze [...]

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Martha, and all OT saints, WELL-KNEW of "resurrection ['to stand again on the earth']," and that it would take place "in/at the last day" (see Job 19:25-27, for example, "at the latter day")...

yet, Paul here (1Cor15:51-54) says, "Behold, I SHEW YOU a mystery..."

...which is basically the same as saying, "I [Paul] have been tasked with DISCLOSING to you [to you, 'the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY' specifically (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence])] something that has heretofore/not as yet been disclosed"... then he goes on to reveal and explain "our Rapture" event, which involves also the "change" / "clothed upon" issue [i.e. receiving our glorified bodies].

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

We await your further analysis.

Let's just believe the Bible then ok?
Over a doctrine.

The Church is on the earth when he returns FOR VENGEANCE in flaming fire for all to witness. He comes to give relief TO THE CHURCH from affliction. This cannot be so if the entire church was raptured prior to his second coming.
A pre-trib rapture robs The Lord of his rightful day of vengeance.


2 Thess 1 (CSB)

4 Therefore, we ourselves boast about you among God’s churches—about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and afflictions that you are enduring.

5 It is clear evidence of God’s righteous judgement that you will be counted worthy of God’s kingdom, for which you also are suffering,

6 since it is just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you

7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us. This will take place at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels,

8 when he takes vengeance with flaming fire on those who don’t know God and on those who don’t obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

9 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord’s presence and from his glorious strength

10 on that day when he comes to be glorified by his saints and to be marvelled at by all those who have believed, because our testimony among you was believed.