Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians

No, He began by discussing attacks on it.

Yes but i take the position that it is a secret rapture and in God's sovereignty in order to adhere to a secret rapture there are two of our bodies and one is taken and the other left so that the unbelieving will not notice when we are raptured. it is solely a difference in interpretation but that is my understanding of what Luke and Matthew mean when they say one is taken and the other left. And we know it has to do with the rapture because it says "where are they taken" and Jesus says "where there is a dead body that is where the vultures gather". In other words where ever the dead in Christ are at is where we are raptured to.

It does not matter if people did not preach it at a certain point in time it is still true that there will be a resurrection of the saints.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

There are souls under the altar in heaven waiting for all the saints to join them, and then Jesus will avenge them.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah:

and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The saints must of been resurrected to heaven to come back with Jesus when He fights the world, and defeats them.

I believe according to scripture, that faith is the catalyst for salvation. If you go back into the world and willfully live according to the sinful nature, you have stopped having faith. That person has unplugged from God's grace. We are saved by grace through faith, from first to last. Consider what is written in James:

"My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins."

In the scripture above, James is addressing believers by saying 'My brothers.' In further support of this, he says, "if one of you (a believer) should wander from the truth." In order to wander from the truth, one would have to have previously been in the truth. Notice that while in that wandered state, that person is accumulating sin and is on their way to death. But, if one warns that person to turn back and they repent, then a multitude of sins which they will have committed in that wandered state, will be forgiven and they will be saved from death.

Yes, but he also explained it

Pre -tribulation rapture believers, Please! Be honest about this one point.

There are people in heaven NOW. There is no need for the rapture to occur to populate heaven.
Peter and Paul are in heaven. Some of my forebears are in heaven. Silas, Timothy and hundreds of first century Jewish & Gentile
Believers are in heaven. 2000 years worth of departed believers are in heaven. They are all the church. All the bride.

Please stop pointing to every scripture that says there are saints in heaven as "proof" that it MUST be a post-rapture reference .
It drives me up the wall.

Two bodies is an assumption. By the way, it is not a secret gathering. It just that the event takes place in an amount of time that can't be divided. For all we know, at the time that the gathering takes place, an unbeliever could be having a conversation with his friend who is a Christian an see him disappear right before his eyes.

We can't just make up our own understanding of this, but we need to look at all related scriptures in order to come to a right conclusion. That fact there is no mention of two bodies is neither mentioned nor fits Jesus resurrection, which is our example. Jesus resurrected in the same body that He was crucified in, but immortal and glorified. It will be the same for all believers. The only difference is that, those who are still alive, because they are not dead, will just be changed immortal and glorified. Those who are alive at the time that the resurrection takes place will not experience physical death, but will be changed where they stand.

Matthew and Luke do mention two bodies...they say that in that day there will be two men and two women...one will be taken and the other left. I just take the position that these two men and two women are the SAME person not different people.

Lucy, you are correct that those who have died in Christ from the beginning of the church until now, are in heaven, but in their spirits. The word anastasis translated as resurrection, is defined as a bodily standing up again. It specifically has to do with the physical body. Therefore, for those believers who are in their spirits in heaven, they need to and are waiting for the resurrection of their bodies, just like Jesus. Paul said, "I have the same hope as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both righteous and the wicked. The resurrection is when the spirit returns to the body and stands up again. The word anastasis never refers to a spiritual resurrection, because it is in contradiction to the definition of the word.

Peter and Paul are in heaven. Some of my forebears are in heaven. Silas, Timothy and hundreds of first century Jewish & Gentile
Believers are in heaven. 2000 years worth of departed believers are in heaven. They are all the church. All the bride.

Click to expand...

You are correct, the apostles and first century Christians, as well as every believer since that time. However, when their bodies died, their spirits departed and went to heaven, not their bodies. This is what the resurrection is all about. Rising again! Consider the following definition of the word anastasis translated as Resurrection:

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Strong's Concordance
anastasis: a standing up, i.e. a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Original Word: ἀνάστασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)
Definition: a standing up, a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Usage: a rising again, resurrection.
HELPS Word-studies
386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).

Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).

[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]

Consider what Paul said regarding those who people of faith who are currently in heaven, in their spirits:

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By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.

31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies in peace, did not perish with those who were disobedient.

32And what more shall I say? Time will not allow me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the raging fire, and escaped the edge of the sword; who gained strength from weakness, became mighty in battle, and put foreign armies to flight.

35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused their release, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36Still others endured mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment.

37They were stoned, they were sawed in two,f they were put to death by the sword. They went around in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, oppressed, and mistreated. 38The world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and hid in caves and holes in the ground.

39These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 40God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect.

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off every encumbrance and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with endurance the race set out for us.

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One taken = the wicked

The other left = The righeous

The scripture is speaking in comparison to the wicked person vs. the righteous, not two bodies for one person.

"At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.’”

The harvesters are the angels. At the end of the age, the Lord will send out His angels and they will 'first' gather the weeds which represent the wicked. This is the 'one taken.' Then after that, the angels will gather the wheat and bring them into His barn, i.e. into the millennial kingdom.

So, it's not taking about the 'one taken and the other left' as the same person. And this event is not even speaking about the resurrection, but those who are gathered will be those who made it alive through the entire tribulation period. The angels will be gathering living people in this scripture. It is not referring to the gathering of the church.

I agree, but it's important to be prepared. I believe in post-trib rapture. I have heard the full case for a pre-trib rapture, but I think it's unBiblical. I don't have a problem with people being wrong about it as long as their heart is in the right place and they sincerely believe what they do. I apply that to myself as well; if I happen to have interpreted in error then at least I prayed help and understood it with the mental and spiritual faculties at my disposal.

So from my perspective, I fear a little that when the rapture does not come when pre-tribbers expect it to, like when the great tribulation is in full blown mark of the beast mode, a lot of people are going to lose faith and fall away. I think this pre-trib doctrine will possibly contribute to the event known as the great apostasy of the church that allows the anti-Christ to be revealed as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:3:

"Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed"

The imputed righteousness of Christ is taken away? The new birth and being made a new creature in Christ is nullified? This contradicts Paul’s writings to the Church.

Btw, brothers or brethren do not always mean Christians, but rather fellow Jews.

We may have to agree to disagree on our interpretation and there could be more than one correct interpretation.

Sanctification (changed right now) is not the same as glorification at all. And glorification is what the Resurrection/Rapture is all about.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (1 Cor 15:52,53)

Right on. The Resurrection/Rapture is the CULMINATION of salvation. And this is really a truth that is hidden from too many Christians. It is the perfection of the saints that is God's ultimate plan for His children.

A GLORIOUS BODY AT THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE
For our conversation [CITIZENSHIP] is in Heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself. (Phil 3:20,21)

A PERFECT SOUL AND SPIRIT AT THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as He is pure. (1 John 3:1-3)

I agree 100% Matthew 24:29-31 is one of most prominent verses "PROVING" that the return of Jesus Christ is (Post-Trib)

If all saints go to heaven immediately upon death then why aren't they descending with the Messiah during the rapture, but rather ascending from the grave? More to the point, how can they be in heaven without first being glorified, the requirement you mentioned in the OP?

Against my better judgment, I have decided to make a single post to this thread.

While most say they have studied the Scripture and know what it says about our gathering to our Lord, what I read is almost word for word what I have read in commentaries on the subject.

I also know that as in most cases, those who believe in a pre-trib gathering, are so set in their belief that they will never listen to others. Only those who have listened to the Holy Spirit and questions what these commentaries teach will listen and study for themselves.

These people quote Scripture out of context, place their own interpretation on Scripture and ignore much Scripture to promote this false belief.
An example is one of their favorite, John 14.
Jesus was speaking to His disciples as He was preparing for the cross.
He said He was going to prepare a place for them and us also and return for us, but nowhere does He place a time on that return.
He simply said He would return for us.

While I could prove with proper use of Scripture that the gathering takes place at the second coming of our Lord, I will not waste my time because it will only be attacked by the false teachers.

I am reminded of what Jesus instructed the 70 to do in Luke 10 to those who will not here the truth.
I will shake the dust from my feet and leave you to your false belief.

They do return with Him. The body is dead in the grave, but their souls are with the Lord.

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The souls and spirits of the saints are presently in the New Jerusalem (Heb 12:1,22-24). When Christ comes "in the air" at the Resurrection/Rapture, He brings their souls and spirits with Him, joins them to their resurrected bodies, and takes them back to Heaven along with the raptured saints.
The saints are in Heaven because they have been justified by God -- declared to be righteous with the righteousness of Christ -- and based on the perfection of Christ and His perfect finished work of redemption. But they are still souls and spirits (see Acts 7). Therefore to be glorified, they need glorified, immortal, incorruptible bodies. That is God's plan of salvation for those who are in Christ. That the spirit, soul, and body be eternally blameless and perfect before God.