Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians

[Ahwatukee]

How can you say "it is happening right now" when the Bible says that it happens "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye"? And of course it is the whole person who is raptured -- body, soul, and spirit. The Rapture is still in the future, and once it occurs the Church will be absent from the earth.

Some literally deny the Rapture and confuse it with the Second Coming.

I see two who gave you a red disagree, who have no idea of what scripture teaches regarding this group event which includes the entire church dead and living and which takes place in close succession. Nor do many understand the definition of the word 'anastasis' translated as Resurrection. You'd think that when they read the part where it states that after the living in Christ will be changed and caught up to meet those who will have just resurrected in the air, that it is not something that happens individually over a long period of time, but will take place as a group event in an 'atomos' which is defined as a period of time to short to divide.

 

[RevelationMan]

How can you say "it is happening right now" when the Bible says that it happens "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye"? And of course it is the whole person who is raptured -- body, soul, and spirit. The Rapture is still in the future, and once it occurs the Church will be absent from the earth.

Some literally deny the Rapture and confuse it with the Second Coming.

I should've clarified that i believe we are being "changed" right now everybody in their own time and in preparation for the rapture. But both being "changed" and the "rapture" are really close events that's why sometimes i mix them together but technically they are separate events.

 

[Ahwatukee]

This issue is not pertaining to salvation, so no need to get too uptight.

Even If the body of Christ have to endure the tribulation, at least we know how to turn to Hebrews to revelation, for the doctrine we need to endure to the end.

Oh, but it does pertain to salvation! Hymeneas and Philetus were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place. And regarding them Paul said that it was godless chatter, that it would spread like gangrene and that they had wandered away from the truth and were destroying the faith of some. So yes, false teachings on this subject is eternal life threatening.

The scriptures are very clear in regards to the nature of the Resurrection of the dead and the living being changed and caught up. Those who come up with these other teachings are not paying attention to what the scripture says and are listening to or reading the false teachings of men and adopting them.

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

 

[Ahwatukee]

This issue is not pertaining to salvation, so no need to get too uptight.

Even If the body of Christ have to endure the tribulation, at least we know how to turn to Hebrews to revelation, for the doctrine we need to endure to the end.

The coming wrath of God is not meant for the church. Jesus already satisfied God's wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, the Lord is going to keep his promise to come and gather His church prior to God's coming wrath, not after or during. By your claim above, you'd have God punishing the righteous right along with the wicked. People who believe and teach that the church is going to be on the earth do so because they have no idea of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

What is coming is God's tribulation/wrath, not man's or Satan's.

 

[John146]

You see, this point has always bothered me about a pre-tib timing. It does too much damage to scripture.
Nehemiah6
"once it occurs the Church will be absent from the earth."

Will we be radiant & ready or removed early?

Revelation 19
7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.”
8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

9 Then he *said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’”

People are being martyred during the GT period.
Revelation 14 (NASB)
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,

10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.”

Nehemiah6
"once it occurs the Church will be absent from the earth."
This idea excludes from the church Saints who persevere. Dead who die in The Lord. Those endorsed directly by the Holy Spirit. Martyrs. These are members of the church clearly portrayed as being on the earth.

This is but one of dozens of inconsistencies in the Pre-Tribulation Doctrine. The rapture I believe. I just can't see it in a pre-tribulation timing in scripture.

The saints in Revelation 14 are Jews who have turned to God. Keeping the commandments are part of their works to endure the tribulation. The saints in chapter 19 are in heaven already. They are the raptured saints at the catching up. The marriage to the Lamb takes place in heaven during the tribulation and before the return of Christ. The bridegroom will be coming back already married to His bride, the Church.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I should've clarified that i believe we are being "changed" right now everybody in their own time and in preparation for the rapture. But both being "changed" and the "rapture" are really close events that's why sometimes i mix them together but technically they are separate events.

The change that takes place in the twinkling of an eye, will be changing from this body that has pain, gets old and dies, to an immortal and glorified body and that in a nanosecond, not over a period of time. We will remain in these bodies with the sinful nature up until that event takes place, then when the Lord appears we will be transformed into an immortal and glorified body just like His.

 

[John146]

This issue is not pertaining to salvation, so no need to get too uptight.

Even If the body of Christ have to endure the tribulation, at least we know how to turn to Hebrews to revelation, for the doctrine we need to endure to the end.

But, if we fall away there is no more forgiveness of sins.

 

[Ahwatukee]

You see, this point has always bothered me about a pre-tib timing. It does too much damage to scripture.
Nehemiah6
"once it occurs the Church will be absent from the earth."

Will we be radiant & ready or removed early?

When the resurrection of the dead takes place, their bodies will be reanimated immortal and glorified. Immediately after that, those still alive in Christ will be changed immortal and glorified and will meet those who will have just resurrected in the air, where the entire church from beginning to the end will be gathered in the same place at the same time. Then in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, the Lord will then take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us. At that time each of us will stand at the Bema seat of Christ to be judged for what we did whether good or worthless, but for sin, but to receive reward or to lose reward. While there, we will also be given our fine linen, white and clean and will attend the wedding feast of the Lamb. After that, we will follow the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and all the angels with us and will return to the earth.

So, you are correct. The church will be absent from the earth once the resurrection takes place, which will be followed by the wrath of God, which believers are not appointed to suffer.

 

[RevelationMan]

The change that takes place in the twinkling of an eye, will be changing from this body that has pain, gets old and dies, to an immortal and glorified body and that in a nanosecond, not over a period of time. We will remain in these bodies with the sinful nature up until that event takes place, then when the Lord appears we will be transformed into an immortal and glorified body just like His.

yes, i agree but the new body is housed in the old body until we are raptured. Then the glorified body separates from the old body and the old body is left behind...one is taken and the other left. This is why the unbelieving will not know when we are raptured because our old bodies are left behind and operate totally by basic instincts until it dies.

 

[Ahwatukee]

But, if we fall away there is no more forgiveness of sins.

Correct John! I would clarify for the sake of those new Christians reading, that this has nothing to do with falling into sin while in your walk with Christ. The reference to 'Falling away' refers to complete apostasy, i.e. going back into living according to the sinful nature and dying in that state. But for those who have a repentant spirit and sin out of weakness, scripture states that, 'when we sin, if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanses us of all unrighteousness.

 

[John146]

yes, i agree but the new body is housed in the old body until we are raptured. Then the glorified body separates from the old body and the old body is left behind...one is taken and the other left. This is why the unbelieving will not know when we are raptured because our old bodies are left behind and operate totally by basic instincts until it dies.

Wow! I’ve never heard this interpretation before. I don’t even know what to say.

 

[Ahwatukee]

yes, i agree but the new body is housed in the old body until we are raptured. Then the glorified body separates from the old body and the old body is left behind...one is taken and the other left. This is why the unbelieving will not know when we are raptured because our old bodies are left behind and operate totally by basic instincts until it dies.

Actually, this body is what is going to be changed into that new body. Again, Jesus is the example. When the women went to the tomb they did not find His body, because He was in the same body, albeit immortal and glorified. In support of this, two angels appeared to the women and said, "why are you looking for the living among the dead? He (His body) is not here, but He rose from the dead just as He said He would."

To be clear, there will be two different bodies, but our original bodies will be changed to taken on heavenly eternal characteristics.

 

[John146]

Correct John! I would clarify for the sake of those new Christians reading, that this has nothing to do with falling into sin while in your walk with Christ. The reference to 'Falling away' refers to complete apostasy, i.e. going back into living according to the sinful nature and dying in that state. But for those who have a repentant spirit and sin out of weakness, scripture states that, 'when we sin, if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanses us of all unrighteousness.

Complete apostasy in the tribulation by taking the mark and worshipping the beast and his image. This is not for the body of Christ. That’s my take. Hebrews is specifically for the Jews in the last days.

 

[Dino246]

This entire thread would be for more valuable if the OP had clearly and specifically defined "rapture" with Scripture before launching into his diatribe. As it is, there is so much equivocation that the point is lost before the debate begins.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Wow! I’ve never heard this interpretation before. I don’t even know what to say.

I do know what to say. There is no scripture which supports two different bodies.

 

[John146]

I do know what to say. There is no scripture which supports two different bodies.

The church and the Jews? The Church which is raptured up and the Jewish remnant in the tribulation? They’re not the same...

 

[Ahwatukee]

Complete apostasy in the tribulation by taking the mark and worshipping the beast and his image. This is not for the body of Christ. That’s my take. Hebrews is specifically for the Jews in the last days.

To be sure, those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark would definitely be apostasy. However, I was speaking in general. If a believer falls back into the sinful nature, if he repents and continues in faith, then his sins will be forgiven and he is restored. But if that person continues dies in that fallen state, then he will have died in his sins. To be clear, a person who sins after coming to Christ is not lost, but has the opportunity to repent and confess his sins and be restored.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The church and the Jews? The Church which is raptured up and the Jewish remnant in the tribulation? They’re not the same...

I never said that they were the same. I'm in agreement with you.

 

[John146]

To be sure, those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark would definitely be apostasy. However, I was speaking in general. If a believer falls back into the sinful nature, if he repents and continues in faith, then his sins will be forgiven and he is restored. But if that person continues dies in that fallen state, then he will have died in his sins. To be clear, a person who sins after coming to Christ is not lost, but has the opportunity to repent and confess his sins and be restored.

So, you believe eternal life can be lost? The believer isn’t sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption? You lost me there brother.

 

[Ahwatukee]

This entire thread would be for more valuable if the OP had clearly and specifically defined "rapture" with Scripture before launching into his diatribe. As it is, there is so much equivocation that the point is lost before the debate begins.

Nehemiah did indeed define the meaning of the rapture. Go back and read it.