Not By Works

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dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#138,201
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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Pulie said:
"


"If the Bible says I have been saved yet in the end, I may not be saved".


Okay I understand partly "I am saved and I will be saved, this is salvation". "I have the spirit as my pledge from God to assure it".

"I will be saved",? Are you referring to sanctification or the rapture?
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What is there to not understand.....Saved is past tense and all throughout the bible we see a Perfect tense Greek verb or Aorist tense Greek verb applied to salvation.....it is written in all three tenses ->>was, am and will be because of the ONGOING present result from a past completed action.....I.E.

I was saved the micro second I believed

I am saved right now

I am continuing to be saved into the future with the culmination of my salvation in a resurrected or changed body.

God's calling and GIFTS are IRREVOCABLE.....salvation is ONE SUCH GIFT....and we are KEPT by the power of God/ Christ through the faith that HE begins, finishes and COMPLETES IN US!
 
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DorothyMae

Banned
#138,203
May 23, 2020
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#138,203
Chester said:
How you answer depends on how a person defines the word "salvation."
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"Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. " It is bad enough that some do not force themselves to keep the teaching of Jesus but then they do and tell others the same. Jesus does not think well of such evidenced by the above verse.
 
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DorothyMae

Banned
#138,204
May 23, 2020
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#138,204
Duskey said:
Do you actually believe your own words or are you just being facetious?
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I was being facetious. I am so tired of hearing "you don't need to do any good works"..."whatever you do not think that any good thing you do for anyone will move God in your favor".....and so on.

My bible says to stir one another up to good works and this is the absolute opposite and is very very popular. I had had enough. Do any of them even try to stir up anyone to doing good works to others or is just warning them about not feeling any sort of hint that you might need to do something good for someone now and again?
 
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DorothyMae

Banned
#138,205
May 23, 2020
1,558
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#138,205
Chester said:
How you answer depends on how a person defines the word "salvation."
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This is at least a decent answer and I thank you. I did not, however, mention salvation. I just think good works, giving the least a cup of cold water, for example, is seen by God and rewarded. Am I alone in this view?
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#138,206
#138,206
DorothyMae said:
I was being facetious. I am so tired of hearing "you don't need to do any good works"..."whatever you do not think that any good thing you do for anyone will move God in your favor".....and so on.

My bible says to stir one another up to good works and this is the absolute opposite and is very very popular. I had had enough. Do any of them even try to stir up anyone to doing good works to others or is just warning them about not feeling any sort of hint that you might need to do something good for someone now and again?
Click to expand...
You misinterpreted the OP to suit your own agenda .. correct?
 
P

Pulie

Active member
#138,208
May 26, 2020
216
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#138,208
dcontroversal said:
What is there to not understand.....Saved is past tense and all throughout the bible we see a Perfect tense Greek verb or Aorist tense Greek verb applied to salvation.....it is written in all three tenses ->>was, am and will be because of the ONGOING present result from a past completed action.....I.E.

I was saved the micro second I believed

I am saved right now

I am continuing to be saved into the future with the culmination of my salvation in a resurrected or changed body.

God's calling and GIFTS are IRREVOCABLE.....salvation is ONE SUCH GIFT....and we are KEPT by the power of God/ Christ through the faith that HE begins, finishes and COMPLETES IN US!
Click to expand...
"If the Bible says I have been saved yet in the end, I may not be saved.

Then I am not really saved at all.Salvation has come, it is not coming".

You may understand this explanation but some people will need more clarity. According to me, her explanation has different meanings making it difficult to reach a conclusion, or maybe I am just stupid, in that case she will have to explain it in a way that every person(intelligent,ignorant,slow etc) would understand what she is saying.

"I have been saved"
Past(I understand)

"Yet in the end I may not be saved"
Past, Present, future

"then I am not really saved".
Past, Present, future?

"Salvation has come, it is not coming"
Past, Present, future?. It is not coming(it's no longer future)

That is her explanation for "saved" and "salvation". Some people will not understand where she is coming from.

"I was saved the second I believed,
Past
""I am saved"
Present
"I will be saved"
Future
=Salvation( makes complete sense and does not have different meanings/appear ambiguous).
 
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DorothyMae

Banned
#138,209
May 23, 2020
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EleventhHour said:
Speak clearly, what role do good works have in receiving/possessing eternal life in your view?
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God likes it when we show love for one another. That is my motive. And what is more, He actually said that those who keep his teaching, the Father will love and they will come and make our home in them. I long ago moved beyond salvation to loving God with my being as my desire. There is more to the Kingdom of God than salvation, assuring yourself you got it, worring if you are losing it and thanking God you are going to Heaven.

I can assure you, that without holiness, (works), shall no one see God. But one cannot make up what good works He will like. Doesn't work that way either. They might be saved and going to heaven. But instead of hearing "well done" they might hear something much less pleasant.

What works is God pleased with? Obedience to Him. I know that is not directly answering your question but your question assumes thoughts I just do not have at all. I do not think of my salvation anymore. I think of obeying Him each day as it appears to be desired and that takes up all my thinking time when it comes to these matters.
 
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DorothyMae

Banned
#138,210
May 23, 2020
1,558
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#138,210
DorothyMae said:
When one keeps preaching against good works, one ought not be surprised if few value doing them.
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Some of you might disagree but it is a fact of human nature when you tell people that they do not need to do anything for anyone and if they do it does not matter at all, then they are likely not to do anything for anyone. You can dislike this but it is simply true. Make anything voluntary and half of the people, at least, will not do it if it is a bother. Obeying God is a big bother and anyone who says it is a joy has likely never obeyed God. Just ask that same person to forgive someone and the response will not be, "oh joy, I get to forgive those who offend and abuse me."

Some of the evidence for this "do nothing for anyone" preaching is the type of responses one get here that show the fruit of that teaching. They do not have to be gentle and kind with someone who dares suggest that God might require them to do something good for someone else.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#138,211
#138,211
Pulie said:
"


"If the Bible says I have been saved yet in the end, I may not be saved".
Click to expand...
that’s not what the Bible says though. It does not say i
Am saved now but in the end I may not be saved
Okay I understand partly "I am saved and I will be saved, this is salvation". "I have the spirit as my pledge from God to assure it".

"I will be saved",? Are you referring to sanctification or the rapture?
Click to expand...
I will be saved means I will be glorified when I am resurrected.
He who began a good work in me will
Complete it
praise God
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#138,212
#138,212
DorothyMae said:
I was being facetious. I am so tired of hearing "you don't need to do any good works"..."whatever you do not think that any good thing you do for anyone will move God in your favor".....and so on.

My bible says to stir one another up to good works and this is the absolute opposite and is very very popular. I had had enough. Do any of them even try to stir up anyone to doing good works to others or is just warning them about not feeling any sort of hint that you might need to do something good for someone now and again?
Click to expand...
I think you are hearing things

No prob me is saying a child of god will
Not do good works

Now. We are saying you can not work your way to heaven. But that does not say good works will not follow
as Paul said. We are saved by grace through faith not works. But this saved will work EPH 2: 8-10
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#138,213
#138,213
DorothyMae said:
God likes it when we show love for one another. That is my motive. And what is more, He actually said that those who keep his teaching, the Father will love and they will come and make our home in them. I long ago moved beyond salvation to loving God with my being as my desire. There is more to the Kingdom of God than salvation, assuring yourself you got it, worring if you are losing it and thanking God you are going to Heaven.

I can assure you, that without holiness, (works), shall no one see God. But one cannot make up what good works He will like. Doesn't work that way either. They might be saved and going to heaven. But instead of hearing "well done" they might hear something much less pleasant.

What works is God pleased with? Obedience to Him. I know that is not directly answering your question but your question assumes thoughts I just do not have at all. I do not think of my salvation anymore. I think of obeying Him each day as it appears to be desired and that takes up all my thinking time when it comes to these matters.
Click to expand...
Scripture is clear......

John 6:28-29 - "Then said they unto him, WHAT SHALL WE DO, that we might work the works
of God?

Jesus answered and said unto them, THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD, THAT YE BELIEVE
ON HIM whom he hath sent."
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#138,215
#138,215
DorothyMae said:
I can assure you, that without holiness, (works), shall no one see God. But one cannot make up what good works He will like. Doesn't work that way either. They might be saved and going to heaven. But instead of hearing "well done" they might hear something much less pleasant.
Click to expand...
Just to this part, not sure why you think "good works" equates to holiness/sanctification

We have no holiness/sanctification apart from God.

We are both sanctified (position) and also in experience (progressive). The progressive part only comes from God as well, it is His holiness we learn to live out.

10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hebrews 10:10

Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.
2 Corinthians 7:21
 
Chester

Chester

Senior Member
#138,216
May 23, 2016
4,314
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#138,216
DorothyMae said:
This is at least a decent answer and I thank you. I did not, however, mention salvation. I just think good works, giving the least a cup of cold water, for example, is seen by God and rewarded. Am I alone in this view?
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If you define salvation as the point in time in which you were born again (which is what is mostly done on this thread) then that "salvation" is by grace through faith and "not by works" (hence the title of this thread).

If you define salvation (as I do) in the broader sense of God saving us out of life of bondage and misery into the realm of peace, joy, victory over sin, and eternally as his sons and daughters then that salvation is still by grace through faith and "not by works."

This OP says in post # 1 that "Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!" The point of the OP is that we are saved by grace through faith completely and not by works. Amen! I agree with that wholeheartedly.

When the second broader definition of salvation is used (as I do) it becomes clear that living in victory over sin is part of what Jesus has saved us into.
 
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DorothyMae

Banned
#138,217
May 23, 2020
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#138,217
dcontroversal said:
The above comment not only reeks of dishonesty, it also reeks of ignorance and denies the context of the thread......you must be a religionist or Cainologist!
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This is exactly what I mean by the fruit of this theology. Those you disagree with can be verbally trashed cause works (giving a soft answer) is not required or encouraged. Thank you for demonstrating the fruit of the “you needs do nothing at all” theology.
 
VCO

VCO

Senior Member
#138,218
Oct 14, 2013
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#138,218
Duskey said:
If they’re like me then yes, they motivate people to bring the Kingdom of Heaven here to Earth, but for the sake of love, not for keeping salvation.
Click to expand...

Good Works without the motivation of AGAPE LOVE FOR GOD, are nothing more than FILTHY RAGS to GOD. So they are not for KEEPING SALVATION, like you said.
 
P

Pulie

Active member
#138,219
May 26, 2020
216
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28
#138,219
EleventhHour said:
Speak clearly, what role do good works have in receiving/possessing eternal life in your view?
Click to expand...
Good works don't have anything to do with receiving eternal life lest we boast.

Hebrews 10:24"And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works". In that text am encouraged to stir others towards good works.

How am I supposed to stir them up to good works?

What is your understanding of good works?

What role do good works play in my salvation?

How should I start doing good works?

Will I go to heaven if I receive salvation by grace through faith yet be found guilty of murder, raping, etc?

I am saved but the Bible says if I confess my sins He is faithful and just to forgive me. Does that mean I will be found guilty at the judgement seat provided I don't confess my sins?Will receiving salvation by grace through faith save me on that day without having to confess my sins on earth?

Is good works and obeying God's commandments the same thing?

Are the authors using this words interchangeably:

Good works
Good deeds
The fruit of the Spirit
Christelike
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#138,220
#138,220
DorothyMae said:
This is exactly what I mean by the fruit of this theology. Those you disagree with can be verbally trashed cause works (giving a soft answer) is not required or encouraged. Thank you for demonstrating the fruit of the “you needs do nothing at all” theology.
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Fyi... you are the one who misrepresented what was stated in the OP.

And you seem hesitant to really speak clearly on the role of works? :unsure:
 
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