The absurdity and heresy of Preterism
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
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Well at 2:30 is where he makes a case that Luke and Matthew are speaking about two different events. But he makes a mistake. Notice what's said...
Matthew 24-4-16 (listed):
- Deception
- Wars
- Famines
- Earthquakes
- Persecution/death of "them" (His disciples) for their testimony
- Lack of brotherly love
- The abomination of DESOLATION; Flee to mountains!
- Time of Great Tribulation begins
- Days cut short because of the elect
- Fearful events & signs from heaven
Mark 13-4-16 (listed):
- Deception
- Wars
- Earthquakes
- Famines
- Persecution/death of "them" (His disciples) for their testimony
- Lack of brotherly love
- The abomination of DESOLATION; Flee to mountains!
- Days of Tribulation begins
- Days cut short because of the elect
- Fearful events & signs from heaven
Luke 21:8-21 (listed):
- Deception
- Wars
- Earthquakes
- Famines
- Pestilences (diseases)
- Fearful events & signs from heaven ("but before this")
- Persecution/death of "them" (His disciples) for their testimony
- Betrayal of kin
- Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that its DESTRUCTION is near; Flee to mountains!
- Time of Great Tribulation begins (lit. wrath against these people; Jews) until time of gentiles fulfilled
- Fearful events & signs from heaven (mentioned again)
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So it was the "fearful events & signs from heaven" that were mentioned early in Luke. Aside from that, everything else in Luke's account lines up with the other two accounts. Testimony of two or more establishes truth, so we have to rely on Matthew & Mark as the foundation for the sequence to confirm Luke's account.
Matthew 24-4-16 (listed):
- Deception
- Wars
- Famines
- Earthquakes
- Persecution/death of "them" (His disciples) for their testimony
- Lack of brotherly love
- The abomination of DESOLATION; Flee to mountains!
- Time of Great Tribulation begins
- Days cut short because of the elect
- Fearful events & signs from heaven
Mark 13-4-16 (listed):
- Deception
- Wars
- Earthquakes
- Famines
- Persecution/death of "them" (His disciples) for their testimony
- Lack of brotherly love
- The abomination of DESOLATION; Flee to mountains!
- Days of Tribulation begins
- Days cut short because of the elect
- Fearful events & signs from heaven
Luke 21:8-21 (listed):
- Deception
- Wars
- Earthquakes
- Famines
- Pestilences (diseases)
- Fearful events & signs from heaven ("but before this")
- Persecution/death of "them" (His disciples) for their testimony
- Betrayal of kin
- Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that its DESTRUCTION is near; Flee to mountains!
- Time of Great Tribulation begins (lit. wrath against these people; Jews) until time of gentiles fulfilled
- Fearful events & signs from heaven (mentioned again)
-----------
So it was the "fearful events & signs from heaven" that were mentioned early in Luke. Aside from that, everything else in Luke's account lines up with the other two accounts. Testimony of two or more establishes truth, so we have to rely on Matthew & Mark as the foundation for the sequence to confirm Luke's account.
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I looked again at Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly (Gr. taxý)
And the word "quickly" in Rev 22:7 is Strong's #5035. I went through the variants (from 5036 to 5029):
Strong's #5036 ταχύς:
Of uncertain affinity; fleet, i.e. (figuratively) prompt or ready -- swift.
Strong's #5035 ταχύ:
Neuter singular of tachus (as adverb); shortly, i.e. Without delay, soon, or (by surprise) suddenly, or (by implication, of ease) readily -- lightly, quickly.
Strong's #5034 τάχος:
From the same as tachus; a brief space (of time), i.e. (with en prefixed) in haste -- + quickly, + shortly, + speedily.
Strong's #5033 τάχιστα:
Neuter plural of the superlative of tachus (as adverb); most quickly, i.e. (with hos prefixed) as soon as possible -- + with all speed.
Strong's #5032 τάχειον:
Neuter singular of the comparative of tachus (as adverb); more swiftly, i.e. (in manner) more rapidly, or (in time) more speedily -- out (run), quickly, shortly, sooner.
Strong's #5031 ταχινός:
From tachos; curt, i.e. Impending -- shortly, swift.
Strong's #5030 ταχέως:
Adverb from tachus; briefly, i.e. (in time) speedily, or (in manner) rapidly -- hastily, quickly, shortly, soon, suddenly.
Strong's #5029 τάχα:
As if neuter plural of tachus (adverbially); shortly, i.e. (figuratively) possibly -- peradventure(-haps).
I think if you go through 5029, 5030, 5031, 5032, 5033, 5034, 5035, 5036, there may be a way to explain why "quickly" in Rev 22:7 does not mean "immediately" but rather "by surprise", "suddenly" ... which would explain why so many years have passed between the time the Book of Revelation of Jesus Christ was written and the current time.
And the word "quickly" in Rev 22:7 is Strong's #5035. I went through the variants (from 5036 to 5029):
Strong's #5036 ταχύς:
Of uncertain affinity; fleet, i.e. (figuratively) prompt or ready -- swift.
Strong's #5035 ταχύ:
Neuter singular of tachus (as adverb); shortly, i.e. Without delay, soon, or (by surprise) suddenly, or (by implication, of ease) readily -- lightly, quickly.
Strong's #5034 τάχος:
From the same as tachus; a brief space (of time), i.e. (with en prefixed) in haste -- + quickly, + shortly, + speedily.
Strong's #5033 τάχιστα:
Neuter plural of the superlative of tachus (as adverb); most quickly, i.e. (with hos prefixed) as soon as possible -- + with all speed.
Strong's #5032 τάχειον:
Neuter singular of the comparative of tachus (as adverb); more swiftly, i.e. (in manner) more rapidly, or (in time) more speedily -- out (run), quickly, shortly, sooner.
Strong's #5031 ταχινός:
From tachos; curt, i.e. Impending -- shortly, swift.
Strong's #5030 ταχέως:
Adverb from tachus; briefly, i.e. (in time) speedily, or (in manner) rapidly -- hastily, quickly, shortly, soon, suddenly.
Strong's #5029 τάχα:
As if neuter plural of tachus (adverbially); shortly, i.e. (figuratively) possibly -- peradventure(-haps).
I think if you go through 5029, 5030, 5031, 5032, 5033, 5034, 5035, 5036, there may be a way to explain why "quickly" in Rev 22:7 does not mean "immediately" but rather "by surprise", "suddenly" ... which would explain why so many years have passed between the time the Book of Revelation of Jesus Christ was written and the current time.
yes, some people say that, and it is the traditional view.
it may have been written well after the book of Revelation.
"Alternatively, the letter's acknowledgment and rejection of gnostic theology may reveal a later date of authorship than orthodox Christianity claims. This can not be assured by a simple study of the context. Gnosticism's beginnings and its relationship to Christianity are poorly dated, due to an insufficient corpus of literature relating the first interactions between the two religions."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Epistle_of_John
it may have been written well after the book of Revelation.
"Alternatively, the letter's acknowledgment and rejection of gnostic theology may reveal a later date of authorship than orthodox Christianity claims. This can not be assured by a simple study of the context. Gnosticism's beginnings and its relationship to Christianity are poorly dated, due to an insufficient corpus of literature relating the first interactions between the two religions."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Epistle_of_John
Many respected theologians such as Martin Luther, John Calvin, and John Wycliff were historicist, and John Wycliff is the guy who translated Revelation to English. If you're going to say John Wycliffe misinterpreted stuff, then you pretty much undermine the inerrancy of the Bible you're reading.
It's not so much that they misinterpreted history--it's that a lot of history hadn't happened yet. They were in the Reformation. Another 500 years transpired after them.
It's a lesson in humility, because 500 years might pass after you, too, are dead and gone.
Everyone's arguments against someone else destroy the other guy's argument. Nothing new here.
It's not so much that they misinterpreted history--it's that a lot of history hadn't happened yet. They were in the Reformation. Another 500 years transpired after them.
It's a lesson in humility, because 500 years might pass after you, too, are dead and gone.
Everyone's arguments against someone else destroy the other guy's argument. Nothing new here.
He translated Revelation into English.
He interpreted Revelation to be historicist.
One may interpret Revelation according to any of the four models and still translate it correctly. Translation is (primarily) a matter of know both languages reasonably well. Interpretation does sometimes colour translation, but that can only be proven with actual verse-by-verse evidence, not logically fallacious arguments.
He interpreted Revelation to be historicist.
One may interpret Revelation according to any of the four models and still translate it correctly. Translation is (primarily) a matter of know both languages reasonably well. Interpretation does sometimes colour translation, but that can only be proven with actual verse-by-verse evidence, not logically fallacious arguments.
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Agreed!
When we think of Greek Historians like Thallus (a Pagan who wrote “On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.” ), or Greek Historian Phlegan ( a Pagan who wrote
“And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place. ”
“Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.”
“Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events (although falling into confusion about some things which refer to Peter, as if they referred to Jesus), but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions.” ).
Those are just examples that when major events took place like Christ's Crucifixion, there was an eclipse when it was not time for an eclipse, or the earthquakes that shook all over Greece and into Asia and many other places. And these are non Believers, non Biblical sources writing about this.
So no doubt had Scorpions that flew and were demonic did happen in 70 AD, it would not just have been Josephus writing of these events, but every ancient writer would have mentioned them.
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Why would we read something directly from John's point of view?
I assumed the Councils voted that the chosen Materials for the Canon were in fact directed by the Holy Spirit.
If Revelations follows suit being led by the Holy Spirit, then it seems logical to assume "SOON" is based upon God's timing, not John's.