The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[reneweddaybyday]

And what you get in return is this:

You also asked about the large army and the killing of 1/3 of mankind.

I do not see it the way you do because I did ask about the large army and the killing of 1/3 of mankind in the same post I asked about the locusts of Rev 9.

That is what Dino246 explained. He answered one question and not the other ... and that's okay.

Dino246 may not know of any historic writing which would fulfill what we see in the Rev 9 locust scenario.

 

[biker]

This is exactly why I put so much emphasis on the RFID chip as being the technology for the mark. The church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath and the mark of the beast will become mandatory during that time. We are the only generation that can point to that prophecy and know that we are close to the Lords coming to gather His church. For since we are seeing the prophecy of the mark unfolding and we must be gathered before the antichrist and his mark becomes mandatory, then how close are we to the Lord's appearing to call us up?

It's hilarious how Science has defined a Generation as being 20 years. The Bible is specific between 70 - 80 years. When we go from 1947/48 when Israel became a recognized State, that 70 to 80 puts us around the years 2018 - 2028. If we remove 7 years for the Tribulation, we are now presumably looking at around the year 2021. No man knows the exact day and hour, but the Scriptures are clear from which Generation this is to take place going from when Israel became a recognized State.

 

[Dan_473]

And then we have solid proofs that John was not placed in Patmos until Domitian put him there in 94 AD (Roman Archives).

as you probably already know, John the apostle is the traditional author of the book of Revelation.

I believe the book itself just says it was written by someone named John.

of course, anyone is welcome to use tradition, or the idea that it had to be John the apostle because that was the only John that the seven churches in Asia would listen to.

but going just buy what is stated in the scriptures, it's someone named John.

 

[biker]

I do not see it the way you do because I did ask about the large army and the killing of 1/3 of mankind in the same post I asked about the locusts of Rev 9.

That is what Dino246 explained. He answered one question and not the other ... and that's okay.

Dino246 may not know of any historic writing which would fulfill what we see in the Rev 9 locust scenario.

If Dino is uneducated on these matters, then he should not interfere between another poster questioning another poster concerning these types of topics.

 

[biker]

as you probably already know, John the apostle is the traditional author of the book of Revelation.

I believe the book itself just says it was written by someone named John.

of course, anyone is welcome to use tradition, or the idea that it had to be John the apostle because that was the only John that the seven churches in Asia would listen to.

but going just buy what is stated in the scriptures, it's someone named John.

Amen!

I also believe it is John the Apostle. The same John who wrote the Gospel of John and the 3 Epistles of John.

 

[Dan_473]

Twice we have the reference 1,000 years equals 1 day.
We know that is not literal but it is figurative in the viewpoint of TIME with God.
If we choose to use REASON HERE, soon to God could mean a Billion years in Theory.
In general. God deals with Eternal Time, not physical time like we abide by.

I hear what you're saying, though it looks to me that that is essentially changing the meaning of the word
soon.

I think prophecy can be difficult to understand sometimes.
here's an example
Daniel 2:37 You, O king, are king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the strength, and the glory; 38 and wherever the children of men dwell, the animals of the field and the birds of the sky has he given into your hand, and has made you to rule over them all: you are the head of gold.

I think it would be a real stretch to say that Nebuchadnezzar ruled over people in Australia.
historians say he didn't conquer Egypt, or many other places in the surrounding area.

 

[biker]

Amen!

I also believe it is John the Apostle. The same John who wrote the Gospel of John and the 3 Epistles of John.

What's interesting about the 3 Epistles of John is that they are said to have been written around 88 - 93 AD. And we know Revelations was factually the last written materials in the now common New Testament. Which means, Revelations had to be written after the 3 Epistles whom the last one was dated around 93 AD.

 

[biker]

Johannine epistles - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistles_of_John
The Johannine epistles, the Epistles of John, or the Letters of John are three of the catholic epistles of the New Testament, thought to have been written AD 85–100. Most scholars agree that all three letters are written by the same author, although there is debate on who that author is.

 

[biker]

^
If that is true, then Revelations could not have been written in 68 AD. Nor was John exiled by Nero if the dating of those 3 Epistles are true!

 

[Yahshua]

The visions given to John in Revelation weren't just about the future.


Revelation 1:19
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;


John is given visions of the past, present, and future. That pretty much covers everything from John's point of view. In other words, he's given a timeline of events that includes many things, some of which happened before John...just like Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel were given visions of a timeline of events that started before they were aware of it.

- Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom already existed before he was told he was the head of gold.

- And it was the 1st year of Belshazzar king of Babylon when Daniel was given the vision of the 4 beasts (1st of which was Babylon).


So shouldn't this lend itself to considering a historicist view of prophetic fulfillment (as in, prophecy unfolds throughout history)? Not all past and not all future?

 

[biker]

I hear what you're saying, though it looks to me that that is essentially changing the meaning of the word
soon.

I think prophecy can be difficult to understand sometimes.
here's an example
Daniel 2:37 You, O king, are king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the strength, and the glory; 38 and wherever the children of men dwell, the animals of the field and the birds of the sky has he given into your hand, and has made you to rule over them all: you are the head of gold.

I think it would be a real stretch to say that Nebuchadnezzar ruled over people in Australia.
historians say he didn't conquer Egypt, or many other places in the surrounding area.

I understand what you're claiming. Which is why I listed the 3 Epistles of John and their dates. Revelations is dated after these 3 Epistles. And if the Epistles are from 85-93 AD, that makes Revelations at least around 96-98 AD.

If those dates are somewhat accurate, then the word SOON would fall into God's timing and not literal timing.

 

[Dan_473]

I looked up the word taxý (translated "quickly" (KJV) or "soon" (NIV) in Scripture). Here is what I found:

5035 taxý – properly, swift (quick), without unnecessary delay; used of God's promptness characterizing how He has ordered all physical scenes of life to happen on His perfect timetable without unnecessary "delay" (Rev 1:1, 22:6).​

​

[5035 (taxý) does not mean "immediately" or necessarily "in a very short time" but rather "without any delay."]​

​

HELPS Word-studies​

that's definitely a possible approach.
is this the page you were looking at?

https://biblehub.com/greek/5035.htm

if so, if you look down below the Strong's definition you can see see Thayer one.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5035: ταχύ

ταχύ (neuter of the adjective ταχύς), adverb (from Pindar down), quickly, speedily (wihtout delay): Matthew 5:25; Matthew 28:7; Mark 16:8 Rec.; Luke 15:22 L Tr brackets WH; John 11:29; ἔρχεσθαι, Revelation 2:5 Rec.bez elz, ; ; forthwith, i. e. while in the use of my name he is performing mighty works, Mark 9:39.

I'm not sure why Strong's includes the word "unnecessary".
it could be a kind of working backwards:
seeing how things worked out, then assuming the word must be defined in a way that fits.

the issue I see with using
"no unnecessary delay" is that we as humans have no way of knowing what a necessary delay is for God.
there could be reasons that Jesus will delay indefinitely.
if that's the case, the word "soon" adds no information to the sentence.
Jesus could just say,
"behold, I am coming."

 

[dcontroversal]

Agree 100% it is idiotic to say the end came and went in the 1st Century A.D......Poppycock!

 

[cv5]

Preterism is an absurd and heretical view of Bible prophecies. But well-known Christian personalities such as R. C. Sproul, James Kennedy, Hank Hannegraaf, and Jay Adams promote the heresy of Preterism. According to someone “it is spreading like wildfire” on social media. That is why Christian should know how absurd and heretical this view of prophecy really is, and reject it out of hand.

The heresy is primarily in the rejection of the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church and the real, visible, tangible, physical Second Coming of Christ with all His saints and angels, to the battle of Armageddon (Revelation 19 and many other passages), and events to follow.

“According to preterism, all prophecy in the Bible is really history. The preterist interpretation of Scripture regards the book of Revelation as a symbolic picture of first-century conflicts, not a description of what will occur in the end times. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, meaning “past.” Thus, preterism is the view that the biblical prophecies concerning the “end times” have already been fulfilled—in the past. Preterism is directly opposed to futurism, which sees the end-times prophecies as having a still-future fulfillment.” [Got Questions]

So what does Preterism teach falsely? Here are their 14 absurdities:
1. There are no future events to be seen the book of Revelation.
2. All end-times prophecies were fulfilled in AD 70 (when the Romans attacked and destroyed Jerusalem). [Note: as a result they try to change the date of the writing of Revelation to before AD 70, when it is generally accepted as AD 95.]
3. There is no future 3 ½ year reign of the Antichrist, and no temple in Jerusalem which he will desecrate with the Abomination of Desolation.
4. The Tribulation and Great Tribulation are already past.
*5. The Second Coming of Christ has already occurred as a “spiritual return”.
*6. The resurrection of the dead is already past.
*7. The final judgment is ongoing.* [*Note: Partial Preterists believe that these three are still in the future.]
8. There is no future Rapture.
9. There is no future literal Millennium.
10. The eternal Kingdom of God is already being established on earth.
11. The New Heavens and the New Earth have already come into existence.
12. The term “this generation” in the Olivet Discourse applied to Christ’s generation.
13. There will be no future redemption and restoration of Israel.
14. The Church has replaced Israel.

We could go into great detail as to why all these ideas are totally foolish. But the best biblical evidence against Preterism is the FACT that none of the cataclysmic cosmic events which are revealed in the Bible have occurred. And they will occur just before the Second Coming of Christ.

When we combine Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:24-25, Luke 21:25-26, and Revelation 6:12-17, this is what we get – a series of events which are TOTALLY UNPRECEDENTED and unimaginably devastating:

1. AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days” or “but in those days, after that tribulation” or “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake”

2. THE SUN SHALL BE DARKENED (BLACKENED)
“shall the sun be darkened” or “the sun shall be darkened” or “there shall be signs in the sun” or “the sun became black as sackcloth of hair”

3. THE MOON SHALL BE DARKENED AS BLOOD
“the moon shall not give her light” or “there shall be signs in the moon” or “the moon became as blood”

4. THE STARS SHALL FALL FROM HEAVEN UPON EARTH
“the stars shall fall from heaven” or “the stars of heaven shall fall” or “there shall be signs in the stars” or “the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind”

5. THE POWERS OF THE HEAVEN SHALL BE SHAKEN, AND IT SHALL DEPART AS A SCROLL
“the powers of the heavens shall be shaken” or “the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken” or “the powers of heaven shall be shaken” or “the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together”

6. EVERY MOUNTAIN AND ISLAND WILL BE MOVED OUT ITS PLACE
“upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity” or “every mountain and island were moved out of their places”

7. THE SEA AND WAVES WILL ROAR AS NEVER BEFORE
“the sea and the waves roaring”

8. MEN’S HEARTS WILL FAIL THEM BECAUSE OF FEAR
“Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth” or “And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

Had any of this happened already, we would not even be living on this earth as it exists, and the heavenly bodies would not continue to exist as we see them.

I found out that RC Sproul was a preterist long long after I had heard him speak and after listening to many of his presentations. It came as quite a shock believe me. Unfortunately he was a died in the wool reformer who hearkened unto the commentaries of his predecessors, similar to the error of the Jews in Jesus day.

Incredibly I use to listen to Kennedy and Hanegraaf quite a bit back in the day and I am shocked to find out (!!!!JUST NOW!!!!) that they also were/are preterists.

Disclosure: I have never have been a preterist, always a literalist futurist. Fortunately for me I learned from the best very early on.....Chuck Missler. I don't agree with everything Chuck says but when it comes to eschatology he is among the best.

 

[cv5]

Agree 100% it is idiotic to say the end came and went in the 1st Century A.D......Poppycock!

With a heavy dose of wishful thinking in my opinion.

 

[Dan_473]

There is a difference between quickly or speedily and "soon". Someone can come speedily but not necessarily "soon".

Strong's Concordance
tachu: quickly
Original Word: ταχύ
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: tachu
Phonetic Spelling: (takh-oo')
Definition: quickly
Usage: quickly, speedily.

As we know from Church history, Christ did not return to earth in the first century, neither has He returned to this day. But since a thousand years are as but a day in the sight of God, if Christ comes in the 21st century, it will be speedily from God's perspective.

In any event those cataclysmic cosmic events must occur before the Second Coming of Christ, and they have not happened.

I don't think the common usage of the word for people speaking Greek back then was "speedily, but indefinitely".

of course, God is allowed to attach a special meaning to the word
soon
if he so chooses.

the issue I see with saying that the events described in Revelation haven't happened yet is that it requires that the speaker already knows the correct interpretation of the book.

to me, it's clear that sometimes things presented in Scripture do not relate to actual physical events, but are figurative.

for example
Judges 9:8 The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said to the olive tree, 'Reign over us.'

 

[cv5]

The main problem relating to this is in selective interpretation and unintentianal/deliberate amnesia when it comes to other related
Gospel passages that wont fit into whatever the reader wants them to say. Before the discussion in Matthew Chapter 24 Jesus attacked the Religious leadership. The Disciples then drew his attention to the impressive Temple Structure and told them that not one stone
would be left on another that wont be thrown down. His Disciples asked him when will these things be, the sign of his coming, and
the end of the age. He answered by combining events that will happen both in their generation and in the distant future. He knew
what would happen both in 70AD and before his second coming. Many of the events in their generation and the last days would be
very similar and others wouldnt. What is known as full preterism tries to fit everything into one time frame. There are partial preterists that recognise that there will be a second coming followed by a final judgement. Unfortunately literalists fail to realise that Jewish understanding of scripture also recognises that there are also passages that use symbol, metaphor and poetry as well as literalism
both then and now.

There are definitely some notable differences between Luke 21 and the other accounts. This gives rise to many unnecessary controversies and erroneous interpretations and conclusions. I urge everyone to review this video which maps out the differences.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

If Dino is uneducated on these matters, then he should not interfere between another poster questioning another poster concerning these types of topics.

biker ... I do not know what happened between you and Dino246 and to be honest I'm sorry that there is so much dissonance between the two of you.

However, the same thing you accuse Dino246 of doing is what you did in your Post #136.

Dino246 answered one of the questions I asked ... that is all he did.

And he probably answered because I had asked a question and Dino246 and I have come to know each other over the past 4 years (when I joined the forum).

As you and I get to know each other, if I see something you have posted, I might reply to you even though you have submitted a post to someone other than me.

I would like to fellowship with you in this forum in a Christlike manner ... just as I would like to fellowship with Dino246 in a Christlike manner.

Please do not put me in the middle of whatever you've got going on with Dino246. Allow me to have Christlike fellowship with you and allow me to have Christlike fellowship with Dino246. Thank you in advance for your understanding.

 

[cv5]

There are definitely some notable differences between Luke 21 and the other accounts. This gives rise to many unnecessary controversies and erroneous interpretations and conclusions. I urge everyone to review this video which maps out the differences.

To further support this case it must be noted that ONLY Luke 21:24 are "the times of the gentiles" stated to occur and this after the destruction of Jerusalem. It is therefore clear that the destruction of the city/temple in 70 A.D. is noted in the preceding verses.

"They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

To bolster this case yet further, only Matthew 24 in Mark 13 mention the abomination of desolation.

 

[biker]

biker ... I do not know what happened between you and Dino246 and to be honest I'm sorry that there is so much dissonance between the two of you.

However, the same thing you accuse Dino246 of doing is what you did in your Post #136.

Dino246 answered one of the questions I asked ... that is all he did.

And he probably answered because I had asked a question and Dino246 and I have come to know each other over the past 4 years (when I joined the forum).

As you and I get to know each other, if I see something you have posted, I might reply to you even though you have submitted a post to someone other than me.

I would like to fellowship with you in this forum in a Christlike manner ... just as I would like to fellowship with Dino246 in a Christlike manner.

Please do not put me in the middle of whatever you've got going on with Dino246. Allow me to have Christlike fellowship with you and allow me to have Christlike fellowship with Dino246. Thank you in advance for your understanding.

I fight my own Battles. I was merely using the back n forth between You and Dino as an example of what I believe to be his m/o. I think it is very wise of you to choose to see this in another light. However, seeing that I get paid in my real life job to notice these traits and habits, on a website forum it is more profound and noticeable. Which is why we are having this back n forth and why I have continued to pursue it. Not because Dino is not my Brother in Christ, but because he feels justified in his actions.