Eternal security? or loss of salvation? what does the bible really say on these two subjects!

I guess I gave you way too much credit.

If Hebrews 6-4-6 is about losing salvation then it contradicts Revelation 2:5

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.


Hebrews 6:4-6 is showing an impossibility. But if it was actually speaking about losing Salvation, it says that a person who falls away cannot be renewed to repentance.

Revelation 2:5 says the opposite. Those who fall away CAN be renewed to repentance.


But then that is ASSUMING that falling away also means losing Salvation. Which it doesn't.

Well you won't until you understand the John 16:8-11 experience. See knowing is the first step then comes understanding then wisdom is produced. Men hear and men understand but they reject the wisdom and return to the weak and beggarly elements.

Men do not come to a genuine saving knowledge of Christ until the Holy Spirit brings the John 16 conviction. That is what causes the difference between professors and possessors.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Naturally, you do not understand the scriptures teachings on the different deliverances. There is an eternal deliverance, and there is a deliverance that we receive as we sojourn here in this world. Greek interpretation of "salvation" = "a deliverance" God chastens those of his children when they turn away from him (quit following his instructions) and lust after the things of the world. After God pricks their new heart, and they repent, God "delivers" them from the effects of that sin.

Yes, Jesus died for those that God gave him, and their sins are not held accountable to them as far as eternal deliverance is concerned, but they still commit sins as long as they have their fleshly body.

Sorry but you are wrong. I was saved and had a miraculous spiritual experience the minute I was saved and baptized on the same day and in the same moment. When I cane up out of the water I loved everybody. It was a love I had never experienced before and it was a gushing love for people I knew and for people I didn't know. It was the Love of Christ that filled me. Yet because of a horrible church hurt I walked away from God thinking that if this was what Christianity was all about I wanted no part of it. I went back to drugging, drinking and smoking and living a life of unrepented sin and stayed that way for more then 20 years. I was evil and there is no doubt in my mind that if I had died I would not have received eternal life with Christ.
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Except the "effeminate" and "extortioners" I was all of the above. So the question is. If I die while I was being a stone cold drunkard and a thief and a fornicator and an adulterer would that mean that I would still get to heaven even though I died while drunk driving or killed while in bed with another mans wife or overdosed on heroin or cocaine??? Or would I receive my just reward for walking away from God and dying in unrepented sin??? Once you are dead there is no way to ask forgiveness because you are dead and can't speak the words with your mouth or think them with your mind.
We can't have it both ways. We can't be living in unrepented sin and still get to heaven because we were once in an intimate relationship with God. The Word of God is very clear about who or what kind or people will not get into heaven and an unrepentant drunkard isn't the kind of sinner God will allow to get into heaven. Only those who are being obedient in Christ and whom have repented of things like drunkenness and did not re-embrace the bondages they were once delivered from.
The thing that brought me back to the Lord was a dream God gave me and when I woke up I was feeling so high on the Holy Spirit I felt I could jump all of the way to heaven and that was in 1996. That dream turned my life around and delivered me from the bondage of alcohol abuse starting every morning a 5:30 AM as soon as I woke up and I would drink all day long 365 days a year.
So I know first hand that YES we can walk away from God and give up our salvation, and if we die a drunkard and while we are drunk we die that is not an acceptable condition to qualify for recieving the Promise of Christ.

NO NO NO I never said that falling away meant we have lost our salvation. Please don't put words into my mouth.
I was saved in 1973 and had a miraculous spiritual experience the minute I was saved and baptized on the same day and in the same moment. When I came up out of the water I loved everybody. It was a love I had never experienced before and it was a gushing love for people I knew and for people I didn't know. It was the Love of Christ that filled me. Yet because of a horrible church hurt I walked away from God thinking that if this was what Christianity was all about I wanted no part of it. I went back to drugging, drinking and smoking and living a life of unrepented sin and stayed that way for more then 20 years. I have done things that most people want to do but don't have the guts to do. I was evil and there is no doubt in my mind that if I had died I would not have received eternal life with Christ.
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Except the "effeminate" and "extortioners" I was all of the above. So the question is. If I die while I was being a stone cold drunkard and a thief and a fornicator and an adulterer would that mean that I would still get to heaven even though I died while drunk driving or killed while in bed with another mans wife or overdosed on heroin or cocaine??? Or would I receive my just reward for walking away from God and dying in unrepented sin??? Once you are dead there is no way to ask forgiveness because you are dead and can't speak the words with your mouth or think them with your mind.
We can't have it both ways. We can't be living in unrepented sin and still get to heaven because we were once in an intimate relationship with God. The Word of God is very clear about who or what kind or people will not get into heaven and an unrepentant drunkard isn't the kind of sinner God will allow to get into heaven. Only those who are being obedient in Christ and whom have repented of things like drunkenness and did not re-embrace the bondages they were once delivered from.
The thing that brought me back to the Lord was a dream God gave me and when I woke up I was feeling so high on the Holy Spirit I felt I could jump all of the way to heaven and that was in 1996. That dream turned my life around and delivered me from the bondage of alcohol abuse starting every morning a 5:30 AM as soon as I woke up and I would drink all day long 365 days a year.
So I know first hand that YES we can walk away from God and give up our salvation, and if we die a drunkard and while we are drunk we die that is not an acceptable condition to qualify for receiving the Promise of Christ.

The first line and the last line seem contradictory to me?

I gave you the scripture and you say I am wrong.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Massorite,
I’m truly happy about your sobering experience. Your change of of heart was a good one. Here is the issue I have with your conclusions. Its about how you feel. God gave us emotions to appreciate things. Its part of who we are, but we are repeatedly warned in Scripture to not allow emotions to guide us. There are countless religions based on fueling ones emotions.

Jesus said, "It is written: 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"

Many of us feel we know what God requires. Anyone can arrange a few verses to reach opposing conclusions. Its not about us, its about God. The sin issue is taken care of. WE are all headed to Hell from birth, no matter how much or how little we sin. The issue is the application of the blood of Christ to our lives. That conversion experience may be filled with emotion, or not. It doesn’t matter how we feel, its how we think. No one can do anything without the brain instigating it.

Our opinion of God and His offer of eternal life through Jesus is the most critical issue any human can face. God knows the heart, that is where our true selves reside. If we truly hear and understand and accept the grace offered by God, He will do the work to restore us through His Holy Spirit. Jesus said we could do nothing without Him. Far too many of us forget that the best we can do is simply agree with God.

Repentance for salvation is a one time thing, repentance to restore fellowship is a life long process and has nothing to do with eternal security. This is the fundamental mistake i see too many Christians make. They think God cleanses them from all past mistakes, but we ourselves must somehow pay or make restitution for each individual sin from that point to death, that they themselves must make atonement for each post-salvation sin. It is impossible for anyone to atone for the smallest of sins, except Jesus.

Jesus said, “It is finished.” He also said that we do not walk alone and that we can carry our own burdens, or stop and let him lift them from us, the choice is ours.

They are

In the first he claims he has never said falling away means losing salvation

in the last he says in essence, we can fall away and lose salvation.

So you think you were saved twice?

You think you were saved, lost your salvation, then became saved again later?

Can you show an example of this happening in scripture?

can you imagine being born of God. Spiritually alive, Sealed and indwelt by the HS. then in a split second, having reverted to your former dead state, having lost your son ship and the indwelling of the spirit. and how horrific this would be, How anyone could even survive this major shift back to death emotionally would beyond my imagination.

How do you explain Romans 7:18-19?

Paul explaining the war he has inside between the spirit and the flesh that we all have dealt with and are continually dealing with.

What does that have to do with what I said?

continue on with Pauls words through Chapter 8 and there is the solution to the dilemma he describes.

This theme of obedience is seen throughout the entire bible. God states what is required, man's response will prove whether he accepts or rejects God's instructions. Man's obedience; faith in action, is proof he believed every word God said. The result, man receives God's promise(s).

I started off 48 yrs ago just as you said. i was taught the doctirne of etetrnal security and the grace doctirnes when i was a kid. this is what confused me for so many years as i studied the bible. I read the 38 passages in the new testament that clearly say that we can forfeit our salvation and compared them to the very few scriptures used to say that we cannot lose it. I was starting from the premise that we could not lose it. It took 10 yrs, and many hours of fasting and prayer to come to the understanding that i have now! It was not until i looked at the problem in the reverse that all of the peices came into place! you have to start from the knowledge that you can forfeit your salvation and then you can come to properly understand the other verses. Thats why is start off with a careful study of the 38 passages that tell us that a true christian can forfeit their salvation before i do just as careful study of the texts used for the eternal security doctrine. this is truly a right division of the word of God! I could never have put this together without the direction and help of the Holy Spirit!

The difference between us is that you believe Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 were instructions to everyone who believes, Jews and Gentiles.

My view is that they were instructions directed only to the Jews who will believe. It was all Jewish still even in Acts 2:38.

Reading here and not here to say anyone is wrong. Reminded me of two preachers one about gifts and how does happen any more like it did in the word. And another well known preacher talking about "caught up" saying "who ever just read the bible and came away with "caught up" no one they said. To both of them.. here I am.

Its hard to talk or debate when one plays the God card so to speak. Well what about the other guy that knows GOD and the holy spirit taught them? This is what it always comes down to. You and read a verse and we then tell each other what that verse really means.

Hey Elderdave I am not good with words/talking lol.. by faith getting much better If there were clear cut verses that one can forfeit salvation you would have posted it. To then say about the very few on the other side you said. its how you worded it . "very few scriptures used to say that we cannot lost it". I don't follow this man but I like what he said "if we could lose our eternal salvation it wouldn't be eternal. IF you could lose your salvation, you would. Dr John MacArthur" And this gets backed up by verses.

And then the verses that talk about our eternal life. Where one HAS to ADD to what is saying (what that verse or Christ was really saying is). There are are many in this world that have studied for more then 50 years, prayed longer fasted longer. That being said it should be looked at and given some kind of weight. If your studying should be looked at and weighed then one must give the same consideration to the other side. And it must me said. All this studying what not.. to GOD does not make us wiser. For the man we look at as so wise.. are foolish to God. We can still be after 59 years HELLO ME.. still be a baby in Christ.

For me the things He has shown me said to me.. Salvation has never once been talked about. As in forfeiting it. When only seeing sin and how I will never get anything from Him and how I was going to toss all this up. Walk away. He asked me what is righteousness and then asked me how do you get righteousness. He showed me how HE sees me. Showing me not to look at this through mans eyes. And then I can't tell you how many times I heard "thats why I died".

So is this where I post the verses to then here "what that really mean is"? That its. Thats the truth. There is no verse that says you can lose your salvation. There is no verse that say once you are saved you can't lose your salvation. If there was we would not be talking.

WOW is that a dumb question or what. LOL you are joking right????. Or are you asking a trick question of entrapment?? Apparently I am conversing with a man who is willingly partially blind. You read what I write but you use selective vision to see what you want and ignore the rest. Looks like I need to talk/explain to you like I would a third grader.
Salvation is the reward we get for being saved. We never "receive" saved, we "get"saved and then we "receive" salvation because we allowed Christ to save us from ourselves.
Being saved is not the same thing as salvation. Saved refers to being rescued from the power of sin and Satan, while salvation refers to inheriting eternal life.
Modern Christianity wants to blur the line between "saved" and "salvation". By doing so they can claim that one has eternal life if they simply call upon the name of Jesus - for example:
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Those who call upon the name of Jesus will be rescued (saved) from the power of sin, but that is just the first step in the process of salvation after belief in Jesus.
First we are delivered from Satan's control so that we can choose to repent, then we must "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" - a process which involves testing of our faith.
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Grandpa you should be ashamed of yourself for asking such an unbiblically educated question. We never get saved more then once nor can we be saved more then once. We only get one chance to be saved but we can come back to the Lord no matter how many times we fall as long as we repent of our sinful and backslidden lifestyle.
When we fall/backslide we stop the process of working out our salvation and fall back into a sinful bondage of unrepented sin and once more under the control of satan and the things of this world. But if we die while willingly putting ourselves under the control of satan and the things of this world because we turned our back of the Salvation God was offering us as a reward for willingly embracing Christ and His laws and precepts. We do not get the reward offered for those who endure to the end,

WE ONLY GET OUR JUST REWARD IF WE CROSS THE FINISH LINE BUT NOBODY EVER GETS A REWARD FOR GIVING UP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE RACE AND NEVER CROSSING THE FINISH LINE.
2 Ti 4:7
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Any time someone like you start asking dumb questions it tells me that you are running out of options and you have no scripture to prove your point. But you keep going by asking dumb questions because you refuse to believe that you might have been taught wrong and you are looking for a flaw. But I always use scripture to prove what I am saying is true, not a misunderstanding and exactly as God meant for us to interpret His word. Hands down.

The scripture you gave is worthless to the subject matter at hand.