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LOL! I was only talking about that one verse in Revelation 4:1! That is the topic of this thread. That verse is not a prooftext for the rapture. I could say much more about other verses/passages in other places - and there are very good reasons I believe in a pretrib rapture - though I hold it with an open hand . . .
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And was not the People of God protected from all of them? yes, they were. The point is, it does matter because you said God always does.
" He all ways destroys the wicked first "
That is not true biblically. Now your opinion about the Rapture is your opinion and you may be right and you may be wrong, I do not know if you are. But you are incorrect of your statement about what God does "Always" in destroying the wicked first.
now it does not matter?
" He all ways destroys the wicked first "
That is not true biblically. Now your opinion about the Rapture is your opinion and you may be right and you may be wrong, I do not know if you are. But you are incorrect of your statement about what God does "Always" in destroying the wicked first.
now it does not matter?
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Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened
and the moon shall not give her light And the stars of heaven shall fall
and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall appear
the sign of the son of man in heaven and shall all the tribes of the earth
shall mourn and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of
heaven with power and great glory And he shall send his angels with a great
sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds
from one end of heaven to the other.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout of an archangel
and with the trump of God
1 Thessalonians 4: 16
Matthew 24: 29-31
But in those days after the tribulation the sun shall be darkened and the moon
shall not give her light And the stars shall fall and the powers that are in heaven
shall be shaken And then they will see the son of man coming in the clouds with
great power and glory And then he shall send his angels and gather together his
elect from the four winds from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost
part of heaven.
Mark 13: 24:27
And there shall be signs in the Sun and in the Moon and in the stars and upon the earth
distress of nations with perplexity the sea and the waves roaring. Mens hearts failing them
for fear and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth for the powers of
heaven shall be shaken And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power
and great glory. And when you see these things begin to come to pass then look up and lift
up your heads for your redemption draweth nigh
Luke 21: 25-28
The earth shall quake before them the heavens shall tremble
the sun and moon shall be dark and the stars shall withdraw
their shining. And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army
for his camp is very great for he is strong and exercutive his word
for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible and who can abide it?
Joel 2: 10-11
Jesus spoke about his second coming . It is clear from reading his words in all three Gospels quoted above that
they were based on OT descriptions in the OT including Joel and that he plainly states in both Matthew and Mark that
he will gather his elect at that time. There is no mention of an earlier secret rapture prior to the tribulation in any
Gospel. One would think that Jesus would have spelt out such an important teaching when he discussed his return.
Also after the resurrection Jesus told Peter what would happen to him when he was an old man. If Jesus was to return
at any minute as Pre Tribs believe he could why would he say anything like this to Peter who was probably in his prime
of life at the time. The early church believed they would be here during the tribulation. Here are some quotes
Two advents of Christ have been announced the one in which he is set forth as suffering inglorious, dishonoured
and crucified. But the other in which he shall come from heaven with glory when the man of apostasy speaks strange
things against the most high shall venture to do unlawful deeds on earth against us the christians
Justin Martyr 100-165
Dialog with Trypho
ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet but shall receive power as if kings on hour
as if kings with the beast These have one mindand give their strength and power to the beast These shall
make war with the lamb and the lamb shall overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings
It is manifest that therefore that of these potantates he who is to come shall slay three and subject the
remainder to his power and that he shall be the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste
and burn her with fire and shall give their kingdom to the beast and put the church to flight. After that
they shall be destroyed by the coming of the Lord
Irenaeus
Against Heresies Book V
The little season signifies three years and six months in which with all his power the devil
will avenge himself under Antichrist against the Church
Victorinus died 303
Commentary on the Apocalypse
There are many throughout history who have believed that the Church will still be here during the tribulation
it was only in the early 1800s that most people had ever heard of the idea of a Pre Tribulation Rapture
and the moon shall not give her light And the stars of heaven shall fall
and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall appear
the sign of the son of man in heaven and shall all the tribes of the earth
shall mourn and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of
heaven with power and great glory And he shall send his angels with a great
sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds
from one end of heaven to the other.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout of an archangel
and with the trump of God
1 Thessalonians 4: 16
Matthew 24: 29-31
But in those days after the tribulation the sun shall be darkened and the moon
shall not give her light And the stars shall fall and the powers that are in heaven
shall be shaken And then they will see the son of man coming in the clouds with
great power and glory And then he shall send his angels and gather together his
elect from the four winds from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost
part of heaven.
Mark 13: 24:27
And there shall be signs in the Sun and in the Moon and in the stars and upon the earth
distress of nations with perplexity the sea and the waves roaring. Mens hearts failing them
for fear and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth for the powers of
heaven shall be shaken And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power
and great glory. And when you see these things begin to come to pass then look up and lift
up your heads for your redemption draweth nigh
Luke 21: 25-28
The earth shall quake before them the heavens shall tremble
the sun and moon shall be dark and the stars shall withdraw
their shining. And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army
for his camp is very great for he is strong and exercutive his word
for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible and who can abide it?
Joel 2: 10-11
Jesus spoke about his second coming . It is clear from reading his words in all three Gospels quoted above that
they were based on OT descriptions in the OT including Joel and that he plainly states in both Matthew and Mark that
he will gather his elect at that time. There is no mention of an earlier secret rapture prior to the tribulation in any
Gospel. One would think that Jesus would have spelt out such an important teaching when he discussed his return.
Also after the resurrection Jesus told Peter what would happen to him when he was an old man. If Jesus was to return
at any minute as Pre Tribs believe he could why would he say anything like this to Peter who was probably in his prime
of life at the time. The early church believed they would be here during the tribulation. Here are some quotes
Two advents of Christ have been announced the one in which he is set forth as suffering inglorious, dishonoured
and crucified. But the other in which he shall come from heaven with glory when the man of apostasy speaks strange
things against the most high shall venture to do unlawful deeds on earth against us the christians
Justin Martyr 100-165
Dialog with Trypho
ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet but shall receive power as if kings on hour
as if kings with the beast These have one mindand give their strength and power to the beast These shall
make war with the lamb and the lamb shall overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings
It is manifest that therefore that of these potantates he who is to come shall slay three and subject the
remainder to his power and that he shall be the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste
and burn her with fire and shall give their kingdom to the beast and put the church to flight. After that
they shall be destroyed by the coming of the Lord
Irenaeus
Against Heresies Book V
The little season signifies three years and six months in which with all his power the devil
will avenge himself under Antichrist against the Church
Victorinus died 303
Commentary on the Apocalypse
There are many throughout history who have believed that the Church will still be here during the tribulation
it was only in the early 1800s that most people had ever heard of the idea of a Pre Tribulation Rapture
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