Revelation 4:1

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massorite

massorite

Junior Member
#21
Jan 3, 2015
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#21
miknik5 said:
Come up hither...where was John seeing these visions from?
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Earth. John had an out of body experience and went up in the spirit.
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#22
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
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#22
bud62 said:
GOD dose not ever take the saved before HE destroys the LOST, He all ways destroys the wicked first,WHEN HE comes he will destroy the wicked by the brightness of HIS coming. Even JESUS tell's us this
GOD bless as HE sees fit for you ALL.
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Tell that to Enoch.
 
miknik5

miknik5

Senior Member
#24
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
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#24
massorite said:
Earth. John had an out of body experience and went up in the spirit.
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
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John was also called by Jesus, His Beloved, and was symbolic of Christ´s love for His Church...John was called to come up and see what must come...after
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#26
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#26
SpoonJuly said:
Prove me wrong.
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You are asking to prove a negative. At the same time, that verse in not a direct reference to the Rapture, but the principle is embedded in it.
 
massorite

massorite

Junior Member
#27
Jan 3, 2015
544
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#27
PennEd said:
Tell that to Enoch.
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PennEd said:
Tell that to Enoch.[/QUOTE
Using Enoch as an example to prove your point was a poor example. There is no [proof that the world was about to be destroyed by water at the time of Enoch and if Enoch was removed from the earth because of his righteousness then why wasn't Noah and his family removed from the earth before it was destroyed by water???
Because God never removes His people from the earth before He implements punishments. But He does protect them. For the most part when the plagues of Egypt where implemented for the purpose of causing the Egyptians to let the people of God go and Goshen where the Israelites lived was spared/protected from the plagues. The first time the word Wrath as in Wrath of God shows up in the bible is Exo. 15:7. After the Israeites were already in the desert.
You should pick another more accurate argument.
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S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#28
#28
Nehemiah6 said:
You are asking to prove a negative. At the same time, that verse in not a direct reference to the Rapture, but the principle is embedded in it.
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Can you explain?
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#30
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#30
SpoonJuly said:
Can you explain?
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After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

A DOOR WAS OPENED IN HEAVEN = that where I am, there ye may be also.

A TRUMPET TALKING WITH ME = For the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God

COME UP HITHER = I will come again, and receive you unto myself
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#32
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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#32
Nehemiah6 said:
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

A DOOR WAS OPENED IN HEAVEN = that where I am, there ye may be also.

A TRUMPET TALKING WITH ME = For the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God

COME UP HITHER = I will come again, and receive you unto myself
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Jesus come on the sky and Christian meet Him in the sky



The heaven door was open and john went there


I don't think meet in the sky = meet in heaven
 
tanakh

tanakh

Senior Member
#33
Dec 1, 2015
4,635
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#33
massorite said:
Yes lets hear his explanation of how the principle of the false doctrinal belief of a Rapture or Pre-Trib resurrection fits into Rev. 4:1.
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Its not the belief in a rapture that's false. Its the teaching that it happens before the tribulation.
 
Chester

Chester

Senior Member
#34
May 23, 2016
4,319
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#34
SpoonJuly said:
Some believe and teach that Revelation 4:1 is the "rapture of the church".
I believe it is not.
Prove me wrong.
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Here is what the verse says:
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

There is no way you can twist or turn or manipulate that verse to get a clear teaching (doctrine) that the church will be raptured out of the Earth and taken to heaven before a 7 year tribulation. The verse just does not say that! The context is that John (not the church) is told to "come up hither".

So is this a prooftext for a pretrib rapture? Absolutely not.

Now if a person already believes in a pretribulation premillenial rapture, it is possible to see that this verse could be referring to or hinting at a "rapture" for the church. Chronologically this is where the "rapture" would happen in Revelation.

Now, for myself, I do believe in a pretrib premillenial rapture, and so I do believe this verse could be referring to the rapture. But let's be honest - this verse is not a prooftext for the rapture!
 
GaryA

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
#35
Aug 10, 2019
9,881
4,344
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mywebsite.us
#35
Chester said:
Here is what the verse says:
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

There is no way you can twist or turn or manipulate that verse to get a clear teaching (doctrine) that the church will be raptured out of the Earth and taken to heaven before a 7 year tribulation. The verse just does not say that! The context is that John (not the church) is told to "come up hither".

So is this a prooftext for a pretrib rapture? Absolutely not.

Now if a person already believes in a pretribulation premillenial rapture, it is possible to see that this verse could be referring to or hinting at a "rapture" for the church. Chronologically this is where the "rapture" would happen in Revelation.

Now, for myself, I do believe in a pretrib premillenial rapture, and so I do believe this verse could be referring to the rapture. But let's be honest - this verse is not a prooftext for the rapture!
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I appreciate your honesty - especially with regard to your saying this to other pre-tribbers.

I believe that making this assumption will only lead to error.
 
massorite

massorite

Junior Member
#36
Jan 3, 2015
544
118
43
#36
Nehemiah6 said:
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

A DOOR WAS OPENED IN HEAVEN = that where I am, there ye may be also.

A TRUMPET TALKING WITH ME = For the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God

COME UP HITHER = I will come again, and receive you unto myself
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Ok so know we are just making up scripture as we go
tanakh said:
Its not the belief in a rapture that's false. Its the teaching that it happens before the tribulation.
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I'll go for that.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#37
May 23, 2012
13,112
4,374
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#37
bud62 said:
GOD dose not ever take the saved before HE destroys the LOST, He all ways destroys the wicked first,WHEN HE comes he will destroy the wicked by the brightness of HIS coming. Even JESUS tell's us this
GOD bless as HE sees fit for you ALL.
Click to expand...
hmm did the Egyptian cross the red sea first? or after the Hebrews ?

Did the flood start before Noah got in the Ark or after?
Did God destroy Sodom & Gomorrah before Lott and his family left or after ?

the answer is no. There are three biblical examples of God not destroying the lost before HE removed the righteous.

God sends HIS prophets to tell the nation to repent or Judgment will come. That HE does do and did .
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#38
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
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#38
CS1 said:
hmm did the Egyptian cross the red sea first? or after the Hebrews ?

Did the flood start before Noah got in the Ark or after?
Did God destroy Sodom & Gomorrah before Lott and his family left or after ?

the answer is no. There are three biblical examples of God not destroying the lost before HE removed the righteous.

God sends HIS prophets to tell the nation to repent or Judgment will come. That HE does do and did .
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The wrath of God to agypt ( 10 plagues) happen when israel still in agypt.

And it doesn't matter for God because He able to protect His people without rapture or free them from agypt. But during His wrath, trouble or tribulation that come from agypt still going on.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#39
Jul 2, 2011
21,465
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#39
Israel is yet in Egypt Mitsraim if you will. (Mitzraim?)
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#40
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
#40
JaumeJ said:
Israel is yet in Egypt Mitsraim if you will. (Mitzraim?)
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Yep, still under agypt jurisdiction and agypt force them free work for them till the tenth wrath

My point is they not rapture or out of agypt tribulation till the wrath of God.

So there was tribulation for Israel from agypt, and there was wrath of God to agyptian happen In The same time.

Israel may protected from wrath, but not from tribulation till tenth wrath
 
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