Is it a sin to drink alcohol

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presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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Drinking wine is something that gradually came to be seen as a sin in certain types of churches.

Jesus and the apostles drank wine. Jesus was even accused of being a winebibber. This was an exaggeration. Because he drank wine with tax collectors-- like the Pharisees did in their dinners-- they wanted to accuse Him, which wasn't true.

Jesus said the scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses seat. Whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do. The legal cult, of which the scribes and Pharisees were components, insisted on wine being thoroughly fermented for Passover and the week of unleaven bread. Leaven, or yeast, can live in grape juice. When the wine fully ferments, the dead yeast floats to the top where it could be sloughed off. Once this was done by their procedure, they considered the wine to be kosher for Passover. Jews did not recognize processed grape juice with no alcohol as kosher for Passover until modern times. Jewish authorities allowed for wine to be diluted with several parts water for Passover.

The Old Testament warns against abuse of wine, but does not treat it as an evil substance. Wine and strong drink offerings were poured out before the Lord according to commandments in the OT. There was also an ancient custom of diluting wine. The Greeks did that, mixing wine with water. I hear Italian farmers still put just a little wine in a lot of water. If wine is left in water for 24 hours in certain concentrations, it can kill bacteria also. There is no hint in scripture that I am aware of that killing germs is the motivation for drinking wine, however.

In the 1200's liquor distilling technology developed. This offered beverages much heavier on the alcohol than the ale and wine people were used to. There were many social issues coming from alcoholism and abuse of distilled liquors. Centuries later, John Welsey preached against the abuse of distilled liquors, though he believed in wine as a Biblically recommended medicine and drank moderate amounts regularly when he was in poor health, though he may have abstained when he was doing better. I am not sure if he ever abstained from the Lord's Supper.

The holiness movement came out of Methodism. Methodists and holiness preachers preached against distilled liquor. The Salvation Army, a holiness group, had a truncated reductionist approach to the gospel and left out baptism and the Lord's Supper. They dealt with street people, drunks, and addicts, which might have had something to do with it. In the US, there was the temperance movement, which included women activists and Methodist preachers. There was a move against the abuse of alcohol, which was a serious problem. Wives didn't want drunk husbands beating them up and not working. Methodist and Holiness preachers spoke out against it. This whole approach to alcohol somehow effected the Baptists, but I haven't studied it out.

Baptist deacon Welch's invented the process for preserving unfermented grape juice. If you read newspapers in the US from the era, there is a debate over whether it was acceptable to use grape juice without alcohol in church services.

Somehow, the preaching against gin and distilled liquor evolved into preaching against all drinking of beverages with alcohol in them. This isn't based on scripture, but it has become a word of mouth tradition, carried on by preachers, whom of whom misapply a few prooftexts, in various movements like the Holiness Movement and Pentecostals which were influenced by that movement, Baptists, and other groups.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,614
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Cluster = grape juice, new wine

To read it any other way is reading into it.
Goodness, man, you are both stubborn and inconsistent! You've been arguing for two hours that the grapes were rotten, and now you're saying it's just plain juice.

Since you are apparently unable to admit that you're wrong, let me make my previous advice more clear: stop arguing, drop the matter, and walk away. You're embarrassing yourself.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,975
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The blessing is found when one learns to stay away from it.😉
If this were the right interpretation of the passage, it would be said 'destroy it because there is a blessing' rather than DO NOT destroy it.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Goodness, man, you are both stubborn and inconsistent! You've been arguing for two hours that the grapes were rotten, and now you're saying it's just plain juice.

Since you are apparently unable to admit that you're wrong, let me make my previous advice more clear: stop arguing, drop the matter, and walk away. You're embarrassing yourself.
I was showing from your point of view would also be false. I’m done discussing alcohol.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,177
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If this were the right interpretation of the passage, it would be said 'destroy it because there is a blessing' rather than DO NOT destroy it.
Therefore, juice found in the cluster is new wine.
 
Oct 25, 2018
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You have an interesting take. I always thought what they did was an act of desperation in an attempt to maintain the bloodline of their people. 🤔
But they got him smashed drunk and slept with their dad. Ewwww! Both were sins.
 
Oct 25, 2018
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No one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins.”[Mark 2:22]

Doesn‘t the Christ in parables use wine, and also oil, as symbolic of the Spirit? Also, I’m hard pressed to see Welch’s grape juice bursting a wine skin. 🤨🤔
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
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Where is this freshly-squeezed juice actually called 'new wine' in Genesis 40?
Line upon line:

Gen 40:10 And in the vine were three branches: and it was as though it budded, and her blossoms shot forth; and the clusters thereof brought forth ripe grapes:​
Gen 40:11 And Pharaoh's cup was in my hand: and I took the grapes, and pressed them into Pharaoh's cup, and I gave the cup into Pharaoh's hand.​

The "grapes" that were "took" (taken), came from "ripe grapes", directly from "the clusters", that were just "brought forth" and "in the vine" and "pressed".
Pro_3:10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.​
Isa_65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.​
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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Tennessee
Context? The "wine" of "Belial" (fermented), not the "wine" of God (unfermented, juice of the grape, fruit of the vine).

1Sa 1:12 And it came to pass, as she continued praying before the LORD, that Eli marked her mouth.​
1Sa 1:13 Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard: therefore Eli thought she had been drunken.​
1Sa 1:14 And Eli said unto her, How long wilt thou be drunken? put away thy wine from thee.​
1Sa 1:15 And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD.​
1Sa 1:16 Count not thine handmaid for a daughter of Belial: for out of the abundance of my complaint and grief have I spoken hitherto.​

Context? Eli thought she was a drinker of the wine of Belial, because of her motions and actions. Eli was mistaken. Hannah was a faithful daughter of the Most High and would not partake of the wine of Belial. This did not preclude her from drinking of the juice of the grape, the fruit of the vine, the wine of God, like that which was always set before His table (such as in the sanctuary).
The wine was alcoholic otherwise it would not say the he thought she had been drunken.

You just don't get it do you? We're through here on this thread. I'm sure that there will be another thread stating that the wine Jesus made from water was not alcoholic. This site averages about 1 thread a month on this topic. None of this is new to any member that has been around awhile.
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
929
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The wine was alcoholic otherwise it would not say the he thought she had been drunken.

You just don't get it do you? We're through here on this thread. ...
I understand just fine, having studied the matter from Genesis to Revelation. If you would carefully read my answer about Hannah, I already stated that Eli was speaking about the wine of Belial, not the wine of God.

Notice Daniel and the mention of the "wine" of Belial (Baal):

Daniel 1:8 But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king's meat, nor with the wine which he drank: therefore he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself.​
You and I are to be "Kings" under the KING OF KINGS, and yet notice another type of King and the "wine" which he drank:
Dan 5:1 Belshazzar the king made a great feast to a thousand of his lords, and drank wine before the thousand.​
Dan 5:2 Belshazzar, whiles he tasted the wine, commanded to bring the golden and silver vessels which his father Nebuchadnezzar had taken out of the temple which was in Jerusalem; that the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, might drink therein.​
Dan 5:3 Then they brought the golden vessels that were taken out of the temple of the house of God which was at Jerusalem; and the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, drank in them.​
Dan 5:4 They drank wine, and praised the gods of gold, and of silver, of brass, of iron, of wood, and of stone.​

The same judgment is upon the wall, for all like him. They will drink of another wine yet still that God has for prepared them. Notice that the vessels of the Lord were never to have any dissipation in them, but were to always be filled with the pure blood of the grape.
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. John 15:1​
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. John 15:4​
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 1 John 3:3​
 
Nov 17, 2017
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Matt 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
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Notice how John the Baptist was to be filled with the Holy Ghost:

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.​
The Anti-typical 'John the Baptist', the 'last Elijah' messenger, will be the same, for as John the Baptist heralded the first advent, so too the final messengers (Revelation 14:6-12) likewise herald the second/third Advents.