Revelation 4:1

Earth. John had an out of body experience and went up in the spirit.
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Tell that to Enoch.

I would ask where the 7 lampstands are in Chapter 4.

John was also called by Jesus, His Beloved, and was symbolic of Christ´s love for His Church...John was called to come up and see what must come...after

From the Isle of Patmos?

You are asking to prove a negative. At the same time, that verse in not a direct reference to the Rapture, but the principle is embedded in it.

Can you explain?

Yes lets hear his explanation of how the principle of the false doctrinal belief of a Rapture or Pre-Trib resurrection fits into Rev. 4:1.

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

A DOOR WAS OPENED IN HEAVEN = that where I am, there ye may be also.

A TRUMPET TALKING WITH ME = For the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God

COME UP HITHER = I will come again, and receive you unto myself

"come up here!" sounds a lot like 1 Thess 4:16!

Come Lord Jesus!

Jesus come on the sky and Christian meet Him in the sky



The heaven door was open and john went there


I don't think meet in the sky = meet in heaven

Its not the belief in a rapture that's false. Its the teaching that it happens before the tribulation.

Here is what the verse says:
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

There is no way you can twist or turn or manipulate that verse to get a clear teaching (doctrine) that the church will be raptured out of the Earth and taken to heaven before a 7 year tribulation. The verse just does not say that! The context is that John (not the church) is told to "come up hither".

So is this a prooftext for a pretrib rapture? Absolutely not.

Now if a person already believes in a pretribulation premillenial rapture, it is possible to see that this verse could be referring to or hinting at a "rapture" for the church. Chronologically this is where the "rapture" would happen in Revelation.

Now, for myself, I do believe in a pretrib premillenial rapture, and so I do believe this verse could be referring to the rapture. But let's be honest - this verse is not a prooftext for the rapture!

I appreciate your honesty - especially with regard to your saying this to other pre-tribbers.

I believe that making this assumption will only lead to error.

Ok so know we are just making up scripture as we go
I'll go for that.

hmm did the Egyptian cross the red sea first? or after the Hebrews ?

Did the flood start before Noah got in the Ark or after?
Did God destroy Sodom & Gomorrah before Lott and his family left or after ?

the answer is no. There are three biblical examples of God not destroying the lost before HE removed the righteous.

God sends HIS prophets to tell the nation to repent or Judgment will come. That HE does do and did .

The wrath of God to agypt ( 10 plagues) happen when israel still in agypt.

And it doesn't matter for God because He able to protect His people without rapture or free them from agypt. But during His wrath, trouble or tribulation that come from agypt still going on.

Israel is yet in Egypt Mitsraim if you will. (Mitzraim?)

Yep, still under agypt jurisdiction and agypt force them free work for them till the tenth wrath

My point is they not rapture or out of agypt tribulation till the wrath of God.

So there was tribulation for Israel from agypt, and there was wrath of God to agyptian happen In The same time.

Israel may protected from wrath, but not from tribulation till tenth wrath