Does man have a libertarian free will?

Saying Grace is forced on a person is like saying you had to force a chocolate sundae on a child.

I think it is more like God provides the reasons we base our choices on. In this, he is sovereign and controls us, but our will is free to choose what we want.

We just have differing viewpoints. I used to see it your way, that’s how I was taught for years, that’s how the gospel is typically explained.
I was reborn, given a new hunger for scripture and it became clear to me that all good things come from above, including repentance, belief, new birth etc.
Prior to conversion I wasn’t some satan spawn bent on deception, it’s not that I wasn’t sincere in my repentance and prayer. But upon receiving saving faith and true repentance I realized my previous assurance was simply built of my own hands.
Is it possible that decisional regenerate people are truly saved, of course. Is it possible that some are deceived into thinking their current level of repentance and belief is all there is? Absolutely.
I speak from experience and coming from this background you can see the basis for my concern.

We just have differing viewpoints. I used to see it your way, that’s how I was taught for years, that’s how the gospel is typically explained.
I was reborn, given a new hunger for scripture and it became clear to me that all good things come from above, including repentance, belief, new birth etc.
Prior to conversion I wasn’t some satan spawn bent on deception, it’s not that I wasn’t sincere in my repentance and prayer. But upon receiving saving faith and true repentance I realized my previous assurance was simply built of my own hands.
Is it possible that decisional regenerate people are truly saved, of course. Is it possible that some are deceived into thinking their current level of repentance and belief is all there is? Absolutely.
I speak from experience and coming from this background you can see the basis for my concern.

Not trying to be offensive or anything, but I know better to get into conversations with Calvinist, Reformed, or whatever they refer to it as...From experience, I know it is fruitless. We could go back and forth on it for days or years, but we are never going to see it the same way. I can tell you my experiences and you can tell me yours, but we had better just leave it at what the scripture actually says. I know I see it one way and you see it another. So really all we can do is quote the scripture and let it fall where it lays.

You clearly have seen the change in your nature, as have I, for that we can both be grateful and positively say we are brothers in Christ, we just differ on how the change occurred.
False converts on either side of the fence can be a deterrent, I’m sure we can agree there.

Yes, but I'll have to say I'm your sister in Christ. I don't know why, but most people on here think I am a man...I must type like a man or something...lol

Anyhow, yes I do agree because it can go both ways with false converts. There are some who repeat after a preacher and believe they are saved because of that simple fact or say they are saved because they believe in Jesus, but in actions and in their heart, they deny him. Some praise him with their mouth, but their hearts is far from him.

Its not their faith, previously having zero not any, that they hold on to (not of ourselves) But a work of His labor of love in us.. . not of us

Its not actual before but as the father works continuously in us to both will and do His good pleasure .The before as to the work of His faith is the lamb slain from before the foundation of the world.

God is simply working in us giving us His faith so we an work with him without murmuring. .

As many as the father gave the Son .They alone can come. Not one more or one less. . names are written beforehand.

Thanks Your writing is clear.

Maybe some don't want 1ofthem sisters I have four sisters and five daughters . Only Solomon could handle a multitude.

No girls allowed LOL

John 3 and 1 John 5.

A man that is not born again cannot even see the kingdom of God.

And, the sign of a true believer is one that is born again. This implies being born again precedes faith.

1 John 5:1 1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
(ESV)

So, in this verse, those who are born again believe, not the other way around.

John 3 indicates that seeing the kingdom of God requires being born again.

John 3:1-8 1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Seeing the kingdom of God requires spiritual eyes, which have not been given to all, but those who belong to Jesus.

I would suggest reading John 10, as well.

The Father gives specific individuals to the Son. They hear his voice as a result.

John 10:26-27 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
(ESV)

Read the whole chapter for the support, though.

I have also provided many more Scriptures in the thread on limited atonement.

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...octrine-of-limited-atonement-biblical.187815/

actually, if you will read Romans you will find that Paul states that the law EXPOSES the sin we all have

the simple explanation for the meaning of sin is 'missing the mark'

we have all missed God's mark and we know it because of the law

4Therefore, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we lived according to the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, bearing fruit for death. 6But now, having died to what bound us, we have been released from the law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
God’s Law Is Holy
7What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed, I would not have been mindful of sin if not for the law. For I would not have been aware of coveting if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”a 8But sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from the law, sin is dead.
9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10So I discovered that the very commandment that was meant to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through the commandment put me to death.
12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous, and good.

Romans 7

My point exactly. God created the law. Consequently, missing the mark is defined by God's law as non-compliance with the law. Which is sin. Which is opposition to God's command for right behavior.

In human terms, non-compliance with the laws of man is synonymous with violating the laws of right conduct according to societal constructs. It isn't a sin but it can be construed as a crime.
Man's law doesn't command how to behave, man's law instructs in what is the punishment if we fail to behave according to the parameters a specific law describes for non-compliance.

"speed limit in Georgia is fifty-five miles per hour." That's on the speed limit signs all about the State. Get caught doing 65 and you've broken the law that says, no person shall drive a vehicle at a speed greater than is reasonable and prudent under the conditions and having regard for the actual and potential hazards than existing. §40-6-180

I kind of see what you are getting at, but in my opinion God didn't make sin. He never caused anyone to sin. He is not tempted with evil neither does he tempt any man with evil (James 1:13). The law did not make sin, but it did expose sin.

Thanks, and I got a good giggle out of that one...Yep, I'm a girl, hence the word giggle...lol

What is sin?

I read those chapters. I read John 10 and I don't see any wording that says, God makes a person to believe in him, because otherwise a person is incapable of coming to faith on their own.

Faith is a specific gift according to Ephesians 2:1-10.

And, the word "makes" sounds like free-willer garbage talk. God changes the nature, and the person with the changed nature responds in faith and repentance.

That part, my sheep hear my voice, for me sounds like the whole reason churches preach and the apostles went out to lead people to the gospel. They hear the voice of God in the message God delivered as his word to the world and by word of mouth of others in the faith. There was no written new testament in the beginning of this teaching. For me, that is the meaning of, hear my voice.

Certainly the gospel is used as the means of presenting salvation to the elect, and the non-elect. The elect respond to it, and the non elect don't. Christ said this though:

John 10:26 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep
(ESV)

So, Jesus attributed their unbelief to the fact that they were not one of his sheep. If they were his sheep, they would believe...and he has sheep that haven't even been brought in yet:

John 10:16 16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. (ESV)

In other words, sheep are the elect, and some weren't even brought in at that point...this is probably indicate of Gentiles believers that would come into the Church, but there were Jewish believers who hadn't been saved yet either.

I'll tell you why what you're trying to argue makes for a really bad impression of God. No disrespect to you if you hold to all that as part of your belief.

I don't really try to defend God, nor do I care what people think, if what they think is unbiblical. Election is plainly taught in Scripture and I'm not going to lie in order to protect God from human perceptions of him. If they don't like an electing god, let them make an idol that doesn't elect..which is precisely what I think free-willers do.

I'll break it down in a list from first to last. Makes it easier.
God separated himself from humans after the fall in Eden.
People had to kill animals and have that blood cover their sins so as to please God.

No animal sacrifices actually caused forgiveness of sin, according to Hebrews 10. They were only typological of Jesus' coming atonement. The animal sacrifices were, at best, a bandaid but the wound was still there.

Well later God brought himself to the world to change all that. His name then was Jesus.

This is where I'm thinking maybe you're a Oneness Pentecostal or something. Of course, I know Jesus is YHVH, but at the same time there is one God (YHVH) yet three distinct Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But perhaps I am mistaking what you are saying. If you're a Oneness Pentecostal, though, you need to repent and worship the true, Triune God.

The God that we're all told does not change, did. He changed the blood sacrifice and atonement for human sins from animal blood to human when he let himself be killed on the cross. And that sacrifice brought in a new testament and a new way to return to God. The same God that decided to separate himself from us in the beginning.

No one was saved outside of Jesus' sacrifice, whether they came before Jesus or after. If you believe that, you are some kind of Dispensationalist. Some of them, including CI Scofield, believed that OT saints were saved by keeping the Law, but this isn't true. I am absolutely not a dispensationalist, and I consider this type of dispensationalism to be heretical.

And, God did not change. He changed the manner in which he dealt with people. Prior to Jesus, he displayed Jesus in types and shadows, which pointed toward Him. Afterwards, we now have the reality.

All we have to do is believe. John 3:16 is seared into my memory from Sunday school as a child. Whosoever believes has everlasting life. There is nothing in that wording that says God has to make the person to believe before they're able.

Belief and repentance are both spiritual gifts, brought about in the individual by receiving a new heart. I don't really care what free-willer Sunday School teachers teach. A large number of them are claiming a lot of false things. For instance, there are a large number of free-willer Baptists, Free Grace movement teachers, and antinomians who teach that true salvation doesn't necessarily produce spiritual fruit. This is a lie from hell, and your wording suggests you may believe that, but I can't tell for sure.

God himself gives the elect faith (Acts 16:14, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Peter 1:1, Philippians 1:29, Acts 3:16) and grants the elect repentance (Acts 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:25). Those who are saved have nothing to boast about whatsoever because of this; it is not about human works (Romans 3:20, 27-28, 4:5, 1 Corinthians 1:31, Galatians 2:16). Salvation is God’s work.

Regarding man needing regeneration prior to faith and repentance, I would carefully read Ephesians 2:1-10. It says unsaved men are spiritually dead and require a spiritual resurrection (being made alive again). Dead men don't respond to the gospel message. They are dead.

Now a person believes. But according to what you're trying to say, it is all God all the time doing that. God separated us from himself, God decided to reunite us with himself by sending himself to die to make that happen. But we can't connect with God on our own because God didn't make us able or fit to do that. God has to make us able to believe in Jesus. Which is God.

That's not faith is it? Us having faith? That isn't even what I'd say qualifies as faith itself. That's manipulation.

Faith is a spiritual gift that allows the elect person to respond to God. The rest are passed over, and don't come to salvation. They may hear a gospel message, but they consider it to be foolishness.

God doesn't owe anyone salvation, and he isn't required to extend mercy to anyone. When Adam sinned, he plunged all mankind into spiritual death and darkness. God redeems some of them, and their salvation is all his works.

Romans 9 covers this. There are vessels of honor who receive salvation, and there are vessels of wrath who do not. And, they are prepared to this end.

Romans 9:22-24 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
(ESV)

Well, I suppose the free-willer Sunday School teacher won't agree with me, but I don't care. It's what the Bible says. 1 Cor 1:26ff says that God chooses individuals for salvation, and that he chooses weak humans so that his strength in them is displayed more clearly.

If election offends you, find some Sunday School teacher and hide behind her skirts. I simply take God for what he says, and realize that I'm not going to tame or correct God. And, election is a clear teaching.

Free-willers will try to twist it around so that God doesn't elect, but they are in essence claiming they chose God, and God chose them based on their choice, so they are saying God doesn't elect. Or, they will claim that Christ is the elect one (which is true in the sense that he replaced Israel as God's elect one to reach the nations, but false if they are claiming Christ was elected to salvation), and by choosing Him, they make themselves elect. Ultimately, though, they simply can't handle God the way that he is. Let them go hide behind the Sunday School teacher's skirt, and fail to give God thanks for their election and salvation.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/is-unconditional-election-biblical.187730/

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/is-irresistible-grace-effectual-calling-a-biblical-doctrine.188367/

I read those chapters. I read John 10 and I don't see any wording that says, God makes a person to believe in him, because otherwise a person is incapable of coming to faith on their own.

That part, my sheep hear my voice, for me sounds like the whole reason churches preach and the apostles went out to lead people to the gospel. They hear the voice of God in the message God delivered as his word to the world and by word of mouth of others in the faith. There was no written new testament in the beginning of this teaching. For me, that is the meaning of, hear my voice.

I'll tell you why what you're trying to argue makes for a really bad impression of God. No disrespect to you if you hold to all that as part of your belief.

I'll break it down in a list from first to last. Makes it easier.
God separated himself from humans after the fall in Eden.
People had to kill animals and have that blood cover their sins so as to please God.
Well later God brought himself to the world to change all that. His name then was Jesus.
The God that we're all told does not change, did. He changed the blood sacrifice and atonement for human sins from animal blood to human when he let himself be killed on the cross. And that sacrifice brought in a new testament and a new way to return to God. The same God that decided to separate himself from us in the beginning.
All we have to do is believe. John 3:16 is seared into my memory from Sunday school as a child. Whosoever believes has everlasting life.
There is nothing in that wording that says God has to make the person to believe before they're able.

Now a person believes. But according to what you're trying to say, it is all God all the time doing that. God separated us from himself, God decided to reunite us with himself by sending himself to die to make that happen. But we can't connect with God on our own because God didn't make us able or fit to do that. God has to make us able to believe in Jesus. Which is God.

That's not faith is it? Us having faith? That isn't even what I'd say qualifies as faith itself. That's manipulation.

By the way, in my opinion, women Sunday School teachers and emasculated men in free-willer churches have done damage in regards to portraying God in all his glory and majesty. Their idol is an emasculated, weak, pathetic creature who is not to be feared. Little is discussed about the reality of his wrath and condemnation upon all of mankind, unless they bow the knee. Many won't even talk about the reality of eternal punishment.

Reformed churches do not shy from bringing these things up, but weak, emasculated free-willers avoid discussing this, in large measure.