Does man have a libertarian free will?
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I think it should be obvious already however, in the event it is not let me just say this. Dave_L is excising parts of scripture to support their outlandish claims about God.
They have no understanding of context, nor in the latest example, any understanding of the book of Proverbs itself. They are not of a good heart, they are of a instigating heart that thinks to make claims that are designed not just to insult God, but to also make us look foolish , to him, as we try repeatedly to get him to understand. When that is not in any wise what he is here for.
We all know what will befall the likes of the Dave_L's in this world. Wasting all that time to mock us, is it any more fortunate that we waste all that time thinking to correct a mocker?
The Book of Proverbs chapter14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.
The Book of Proverbs chapter 16:2 All a man's ways are pure in his own eyes, but his motives are weighed by the LORD.
Did Jesus ever tell us to continue to try to reach a fool?
The Book of Matthew chapter12:35-36
"The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. "But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
May God have mercy on your soul Dave. Believe it or not. Amen.
They have no understanding of context, nor in the latest example, any understanding of the book of Proverbs itself. They are not of a good heart, they are of a instigating heart that thinks to make claims that are designed not just to insult God, but to also make us look foolish , to him, as we try repeatedly to get him to understand. When that is not in any wise what he is here for.
We all know what will befall the likes of the Dave_L's in this world. Wasting all that time to mock us, is it any more fortunate that we waste all that time thinking to correct a mocker?
The Book of Proverbs chapter14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.
The Book of Proverbs chapter 16:2 All a man's ways are pure in his own eyes, but his motives are weighed by the LORD.
Did Jesus ever tell us to continue to try to reach a fool?
The Book of Matthew chapter12:35-36
"The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. "But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
May God have mercy on your soul Dave. Believe it or not. Amen.
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I don't think you understand my point.
Love and obedience are evidences of being born again...they don't cause a person to be born again, they are evidences of being born again. Same with faith. Regeneration precedes faith and repentance.
If you are asking me if I have the autographs, of course not. But there is an extensive collection of Greek manuscript evidence that supports the NA 28 (or the Textus Receptus, for that matter.....it is in error in a few places but it's not super awful).
Again, we get back to this contemporary belief of decisional regeneration. It's easy for me to see that it's a false belief, and that God actually causes faith and repentance through giving the person a new heart. An unconverted person with a stony, dead heart cannot produce repentance and faith.
But, you guys keep believing what you want
By the way, Jesus said that his sheep hear his voice, because they are his sheep...not that they are his sheep because they hear his voice.
Love and obedience are evidences of being born again...they don't cause a person to be born again, they are evidences of being born again. Same with faith. Regeneration precedes faith and repentance.
If you are asking me if I have the autographs, of course not. But there is an extensive collection of Greek manuscript evidence that supports the NA 28 (or the Textus Receptus, for that matter.....it is in error in a few places but it's not super awful).
Again, we get back to this contemporary belief of decisional regeneration. It's easy for me to see that it's a false belief, and that God actually causes faith and repentance through giving the person a new heart. An unconverted person with a stony, dead heart cannot produce repentance and faith.
But, you guys keep believing what you want
By the way, Jesus said that his sheep hear his voice, because they are his sheep...not that they are his sheep because they hear his voice.
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I write this post 316
7seasrekeyed said:
haven't you heard? (of course you have but anyway)
Calvinists have created this dodgy belief system that God creates people for hell
amazing isn't it?
even though the Bible plainly and clearly teaches that the lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels, dyed in the wool Calvinists will tell you God creates humans for the lake as well....clearly against scripture
and I get this from nov25 post 517
this is how it works with this tag team
they do not actually address what you post, but ask a question or make a comment that they try to make a seem a natural part of the flow of the thread
however, I pointed out what God states about the lake of fire and the fact it was not created for humans
and since that cannot be refuted and absolutely decries Calvinism, a red herring is inserted in the hopes no one will notice that there is no rebuttal given...again, because none exists
this is a tactic used by sore loosers and bad debaters the world over
for the sake of clarity, unbelievers will also go to the lake of fire, but again, God has provided a way out of that judgement and said that anyone may come and accept His salvation
and we know what the Calvinists state
7seasrekeyed said:
haven't you heard? (of course you have but anyway)
Calvinists have created this dodgy belief system that God creates people for hell
amazing isn't it?
even though the Bible plainly and clearly teaches that the lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels, dyed in the wool Calvinists will tell you God creates humans for the lake as well....clearly against scripture
and I get this from nov25 post 517
this is how it works with this tag team
they do not actually address what you post, but ask a question or make a comment that they try to make a seem a natural part of the flow of the thread
however, I pointed out what God states about the lake of fire and the fact it was not created for humans
and since that cannot be refuted and absolutely decries Calvinism, a red herring is inserted in the hopes no one will notice that there is no rebuttal given...again, because none exists
this is a tactic used by sore loosers and bad debaters the world over
for the sake of clarity, unbelievers will also go to the lake of fire, but again, God has provided a way out of that judgement and said that anyone may come and accept His salvation
and we know what the Calvinists state
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This issue is an interesting one. I am an author, this means I create characters, with a beginning a middle and and end. A good author knows what story he is creating, and what each character is capable of. To assume that God, does not know everything, and every ending is to remove him from Eternity, from his Alpha/Omega identification. Can we assume that he knows EVERY decision possible for each individual? That he is outside of time, and without influence, and Just as well as Merciful? Meaning we all Deserve Justice but can gain mercy? And is is also possible that he already knows how this story will end? John 10:27 says " My sheep hear my voice." Wouldn't that infer that there are sheep who Will Not hear his voice?
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not at all and that is truly a very weak fall back scripture for Calvinists...I will not say REFORMED, because there are many shades of reformed....in fact if you mention Calvin to some of them you will get a question mark expression because they believe some but not all of what is being exposed here regarding Calvinism...NOT reformed
here is the scripture in context:
1 Corinthians 1:26-31 New International Version
26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”
there is nothing hidden or surprising there...in fact it is a theme throughout scripture
in what way, shape or form, do Calvinists believe this to be, and v 26 in particular, some hallmark of God exercising IRRESISTIBLE
grace on people? see, when a Calvinist states grace, he does not mean grace that is extended. nope.
that Calvinist means grace that is basically FORCED on a person so that they have no choice, do not make a choice and are simply swept into the 'chosen' club
Paul states the Corinthians were called...he also states that God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise...God chose the weak etc
in order for this to work according to the Calvinist, God would also have had to make people stupid and foolish to be able to choose said stupid and foolish folk for the chosen
but is that what is being said?
OF COURSE NOT.
the wisdom of God will always be more than the wisest of all human beings so obviously God is not trying to make Himself appear wiser by choosing dummies. Paul states that Jesus is now the wisdom of God for believers so that none can boast
Paul is speaking generally when he writes of what God is doing...he is not saying that God forced inferior people to become believers...every single human being is already inferior to God. Paul is pointing out, simply, that no one can boast as Jesus gives a new kind of wisdom
the Calvinists do not have the market cornered on grace or being chosen
the Bible also teaches that all are one in Christ and no one should think themself better than another as ALL are forgiven sinners
the Calvinist would have you believe that you must be chosen with no choice
convoluted? you betcha...but it get worse
they also believe God will give you His Spirit so that you can be chosen...this is the opposite of the truth
a person does not receive the Holy Spirit indwelling them until AFTER salvation
here is the scripture in context:
1 Corinthians 1:26-31 New International Version
26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”
there is nothing hidden or surprising there...in fact it is a theme throughout scripture
in what way, shape or form, do Calvinists believe this to be, and v 26 in particular, some hallmark of God exercising IRRESISTIBLE
grace on people? see, when a Calvinist states grace, he does not mean grace that is extended. nope.
that Calvinist means grace that is basically FORCED on a person so that they have no choice, do not make a choice and are simply swept into the 'chosen' club
Paul states the Corinthians were called...he also states that God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise...God chose the weak etc
in order for this to work according to the Calvinist, God would also have had to make people stupid and foolish to be able to choose said stupid and foolish folk for the chosen
but is that what is being said?
OF COURSE NOT.
the wisdom of God will always be more than the wisest of all human beings so obviously God is not trying to make Himself appear wiser by choosing dummies. Paul states that Jesus is now the wisdom of God for believers so that none can boast
Paul is speaking generally when he writes of what God is doing...he is not saying that God forced inferior people to become believers...every single human being is already inferior to God. Paul is pointing out, simply, that no one can boast as Jesus gives a new kind of wisdom
the Calvinists do not have the market cornered on grace or being chosen
the Bible also teaches that all are one in Christ and no one should think themself better than another as ALL are forgiven sinners
the Calvinist would have you believe that you must be chosen with no choice
convoluted? you betcha...but it get worse
they also believe God will give you His Spirit so that you can be chosen...this is the opposite of the truth
a person does not receive the Holy Spirit indwelling them until AFTER salvation
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I asked your position on hell because it needed to be asked. Your statement, taken at face value, that is before your clarification, leaves one to deduce that you deny an eternal punishment for "humans". As you can imagine this raises a red flag, as the denial of hell could only come from a mouthpiece for satan. To be honest, this statement paired with my observation of you lurking around this site pouncing on everyone who disagrees with you had me wondering. That's why I asked.
Debate? What's your definition of debate? I asked a question, you refused to answer, merely using the opportunity as a platform to spew your hatred for Calvinists. This repeated nearly half a dozen times, I ask a question, you deflect and spit more venom, then vomit all over your keyboard claiming a debate victory, "I win" 🙌
🤦♂️ Foolishness.
Throughout this entire dialogue I've heard the words of my dad wringing clear in my ear; never argue with a fool in public lest the public not know which is which. You were right dad.
I withdraw @7seasrekeyed you'll have to find another platform to shout your hatred from.
To those who believe rebirth is a personal decision, I would encourage a reexamination. The new birth, the new heart, new spirit, new nature, new belief is unmistakable, one who's experienced it will know it is given not a decisional achievement. It's not my desire that anyone doubt their salvation unnecessarily, but it is my desire to see people come to a saving faith, to forgo the years of unwitting self deception that I went through. I don't know much about calvin, but I do know that decisional regenerate people seem to hate his doctrine and unfortunately the majority of the local church is full of them. They're in the pulpit, in the elder seats and they fill the majority of the pews. They account for much of the confusion in the local church, unwittingly teaching a false gospel of works and their lack of good fruit is a major deterrent to the lost who come to test the waters. This isn't an outside observation of a born and raised reformed theologian, its what I witnessed for years, what I took part in as a self proclaimed christian.
So call me a calvanist if you want, claim I have made a god in my own image, that I'm guilty of idolatry and claim I am deceived by a doctrine of demons but I'll continue to pray for you. I'll continue to pray for one of the most difficult mission fields in the world, the American local church, most of whom have decided they're going to heaven whether God likes it or not.
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Yes. Agree that God is omniscient. This does not preclude man's free will to make the choice to accept or reject Jesus' atonement for their sin. "Forcing a choice" is oxymoronic. Rebels are going to hell be cause of their choices. False teachers are going to hell because, among other things, people on CC showed them truth and they rejected it.
Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
I will agree that some folks are self proclaimed Christians, and I don't necessarily agree with someone getting up and telling others to repeat a prayer after them and they will be saved.
Here is the thing though, when God sends out his drawing and convicting Spirit to someone, then he is giving them a chance to be saved. He gives us that invitation then, and then it is up to us to accept it or not. We don't always accept it immediately sometimes he has to work with some people for a while continuing to draw and convict them getting their hearts ready. Yet it is still that persons choice some accept and some decline. Those that accept are saved those that decline are not. He doesn't force his hand on anyone. I do think he has more mercy on some than others, (he has mercy on whom he will) but I also believe he gives everyone a chance. The Spirit and bride say come...and whomsoever will let him come....and Jesus said if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me. God gives the chance to all, but we have to accept his Son Jesus Christ in order to be saved.
Here is the thing though, when God sends out his drawing and convicting Spirit to someone, then he is giving them a chance to be saved. He gives us that invitation then, and then it is up to us to accept it or not. We don't always accept it immediately sometimes he has to work with some people for a while continuing to draw and convict them getting their hearts ready. Yet it is still that persons choice some accept and some decline. Those that accept are saved those that decline are not. He doesn't force his hand on anyone. I do think he has more mercy on some than others, (he has mercy on whom he will) but I also believe he gives everyone a chance. The Spirit and bride say come...and whomsoever will let him come....and Jesus said if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me. God gives the chance to all, but we have to accept his Son Jesus Christ in order to be saved.
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We just have differing viewpoints. I used to see it your way, that’s how I was taught for years, that’s how the gospel is typically explained.
I was reborn, given a new hunger for scripture and it became clear to me that all good things come from above, including repentance, belief, new birth etc.
Prior to conversion I wasn’t some satan spawn bent on deception, it’s not that I wasn’t sincere in my repentance and prayer. But upon receiving saving faith and true repentance I realized my previous assurance was simply built of my own hands.
Is it possible that decisional regenerate people are truly saved, of course. Is it possible that some are deceived into thinking their current level of repentance and belief is all there is? Absolutely.
I speak from experience and coming from this background you can see the basis for my concern.
I was reborn, given a new hunger for scripture and it became clear to me that all good things come from above, including repentance, belief, new birth etc.
Prior to conversion I wasn’t some satan spawn bent on deception, it’s not that I wasn’t sincere in my repentance and prayer. But upon receiving saving faith and true repentance I realized my previous assurance was simply built of my own hands.
Is it possible that decisional regenerate people are truly saved, of course. Is it possible that some are deceived into thinking their current level of repentance and belief is all there is? Absolutely.
I speak from experience and coming from this background you can see the basis for my concern.
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Saying Grace is forced on a person is like saying you had to force a chocolate sundae on a child.
You can say it. Maybe you even mean it.
Its just not EXACTLY factual. It sort of is. Because the person and the child both can't resist.
John 6:43-44
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
This should show conclusively that even though you WISH that people are who choose Christ it is really God who draws them.
But God also gives them the desire for Christ as well.
So if the person who is saved DOES NOT study the bible they will go on thinking they made all the good decisions required for Salvation. They will think they chose God. This is the thinking of a child. Or of the carnal person. It is not what those who are wise in Christ KNOW.
Its throughout the WHOLE bible starting in the Old Testament. God Chooses. God Decides.
God hardened Pharoah. God raised up Joseph and gave him wisdom. Etc...
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Understood, however - what if some people ( and I know this is not a popular idea) but Some people are predisposed to choose evil, genetically. Is it possible that some are "Cain" and others are "Able" genetically? If so then some are predestined to love evil. This is a complex issue, and I think our job is to Love God, and let him figure it all out, and have mercy towards other because we require mercy. However, there may be some individuals that do no question their love for self, and disdain for the Lord and it is interesting to me that Christians always want to provide a way for them to receive Grace and Mercy, when they don't want it.
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