(Refuting Penal Substitution) Jesus Did NOT Satisfy the Wrath of God On The Cross!!

You should watch this movie..it's fantastic.

https://vimeo.com/ondemand/christcrucified

Oh I saw that trailer somewhere, it looks great. 👍👍

Elaborate please.

What do you think is wrong?

If your issue is election, the Bible clearly teaches it, and those that deny election are simply closing their eyes to the facts.

But that is not the major problem with his teaching.

The major problem is that we have individuals within the Church which simply deny that unbelievers are under the wrath of God and facing impending condemnation.

They will suffer the fury of almighty God in eternal punishment if they do not place their faith in Christ and repent.

This is simple Bible teaching. Start reading Romans. View attachment 212822

Yes

the Bible teaches that Gods children are elect.

but it does not teach your form of election.

and I re-iterated what you said was just as wrong as the op.

Making a claim without proving it is not helpful.

My form of election is simply election. God chooses. Not man.

Those who pretend to believe in election actually twist it around so that they choose God, and God chooses them as a result, which in essence means they choose.

Scripture teaches that God sovereignly chooses those who are saved, and they have characteristics that are not positive. See 1 Cor 1:26ff.

Why? To make his glory shown more clearly through weak vessels.

But, as I said, this teaching is VERY OFFENSIVE to men, so they will continue to deny it, over and over again. They will say, that isn't fair. The fair thing is that every single man, from Adam on, is sent to eternal punishment. They are entitled to NOTHING. Yet, the free-willer claims that they are entitled to the chance at salvation. No, they are not. And, if they had the chance, they wouldn't take it anyways because their nature drives them toward evil, until God changes it.

It is in changing the nature that faith and repentance is borne as a fruit of the new nature.

But, I have explained this only about a bazillion times.

My position is simple Reformed theology.

For those who are really interested, read Five Points of Calvinism by David Steele. For those who want to keep exalting man and his "free will", keep burying your head in the sand, and be sure to tear out John 6, 8, Ephesians 1-2, and almost all of Romans from your Bibles.

This is, in fact, what the free-willers claim.

I caused myself to be born again.

I somehow had some residual goodness that others do not, which enabled me to respond to God's offer of salvation.

God only foresaw my decision. That's it. He didn't elect me unconditionally. He elected me based on positive traits I possessed, even if it is just the fact that I responded.

And I did it all with my stony, unsaved, unconverted heart that hates God and his law.

This is free-willer theology.

They believe that they elected themselves in essence, by their choice.

Why? Because it's the only way that makes sense, given their presuppositions.

I've already produced Scripture to support my position in this regard.

Their position is: the unconverted man, with a heart of stone, must exhibit faith and repentance, in order to receive a heart of flesh which loves God and strives to obey him.

Our position is: the unconverted man, with a heart of stone, needs a new heart of flesh in order to want God. He doesn't even desire him without this heart change. God changes the persons' stony heart, giving him a heart of flesh, and this causes the fruit of faith and repentance.

Their view is that the unsaved man causes himself to be born-again. Our view is that you can't even begin to see the things of God until you are born again, so God regenerates you before faith and repentance. And, he elects or chooses undesirable individuals to exhibit his grace to, so that they cannot brag about anything. I Cor 1:26ff, Ephesians 2:1-10.

But, in free-willer churches all over the world, little Johnny becomes the hero of his story by going to the altar or praying the prayer. His Sunday school teacher and mamma glows with pride and pats him on the head, telling him what a good little boy he was to accept Jesus in his heart. The hero of his story becomes......him. Not God, who gave him a new heart that caused him to respond in faith and repentance.

You can learn a lot by peoples' testimonies and the things they give credit to. View attachment 212840

Dude get over yourself

this attitude is what causes people to hate Christianity, the arrogant, proud think of I know it all and I am going to shred those who disagree with me.

you forget one thing,

the Bible says only the humble and bankrupt in spirit will call out to him. How many bankrupt people who had to crawl on their knees for others to help them do you know go around proudly admitting they have earned their help? Proudly proclaiming how great they are, and how they earned their salvation for debt?

your so focused on how great you are, because god chose you, that you can not even understand the word of God, or that God asks us to do what he does. Because by definition God is pure love.

there is no pure love of God in your theology, your theology has a God that choses, not a God who loves unconditionally, there is some reason God chose you and not the lost arminian. And do not say their is not

if God is truly a God of love, he would chose to pay the price for you and the arminian, and if the arminian says thanks but no thanks. Who can be blamed? God? Of course not, he loved the arminian, the arminian CHOSE to reject God,

keep puffing yourself up dude, you Just hurt yourself

i did not save myself, I could not save myself, that’s why the tax collector got on his knees and begged for Gods mercy. Because he was brought to the realization he could not save himself

stop bearing false witness against others, and repent,

Firstly, I don't claim Arminians are lost. They simply deny biblical election.

Secondly, YOU are the one who attempted to correct my theology. Go back and look at the exchange.

Am I supposed to simply accept your claim that my theology is messed up? This is a claim you must prove. And, you haven't proven it.

When I respond with coherent arguments, you get upset.

I simply deal in FACTS.

Explain to me how the free-willer position can be correct, in light of 1 Cor 1:26ff.

It cannot.

And, God means unconditional election to encourage those who belong to Jesus. If he unconditionally elected his people, then there's zero chance they will lose their salvation. Because nothing they did caused them to be chosen.

Even their choice.

And, I will continue hammering these points to display the inconsistencies in the position of free-willer theology. It is a well-established fact that Reformed people have been harrassed on this forum for a long time. If they get a little of their own medicine, then they have a hissy fit.

Now, the question is, what causes the person to accept Christ? The cause is regeneration. This is often accompanied by the humbling of the person. I have no issue with that. However, a fallen man with a stony heart cannot produce faith and repentance. Faith, in this sense, is a spiritual gift and so is repentance. It is not something the man dredges out of his stony, unconverted heart.

Is faith a gift? Is repentance a gift? Does God grant repentance, meaning that it is a gift?

Yes he does.

Now..free-willers will totally deny this and take verses out of context to provide their false proofs, but Scripture plainly calls saving faith a gift. And, it calls repentance a gift too.

The amazing thing is that God himself gives us faith (Acts 16:14, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Peter 1:1, Philippians 1:29, Acts 3:16) and grants us repentance (Acts 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:25). Those who are saved have nothing to boast about whatsoever because of this; it is not about human works (Romans 3:20, 27-28, 4:5, 1 Corinthians 1:31, Galatians 2:16). Salvation is God’s work.

You stated Jesus died just for the elect.

YOUR WRONG.

You deny free will

YOUR WRONG

end of discussion.

We have been through this before, and it is not going to change going it over one more time. there is a reason I usually do not respond to you.

This is, in fact, what the free-willers claim.

I caused myself to be born again.

I somehow had some residual goodness that others do not, which enabled me to respond to God's offer of salvation.

God only foresaw my decision. That's it. He didn't elect me unconditionally. He elected me based on positive traits I possessed, even if it is just the fact that I responded.

And I did it all with my stony, unsaved, unconverted heart that hates God and his law.

This is free-willer theology.

They believe that they elected themselves in essence, by their choice.

Why? Because it's the only way that makes sense, given their presuppositions.

I've already produced Scripture to support my position in this regard.

Their position is: the unconverted man, with a heart of stone, must exhibit faith and repentance, in order to receive a heart of flesh which loves God and strives to obey him.

Our position is: the unconverted man, with a heart of stone, needs a new heart of flesh in order to want God. He doesn't even desire him without this heart change. God changes the persons' stony heart, giving him a heart of flesh, and this causes the fruit of faith and repentance.

Their view is that the unsaved man causes himself to be born-again. Our view is that you can't even begin to see the things of God until you are born again, so God regenerates you before faith and repentance. And, he elects or chooses undesirable individuals to exhibit his grace to, so that they cannot brag about anything. I Cor 1:26ff, Ephesians 2:1-10.

But, in free-willer churches all over the world, little Johnny becomes the hero of his story by going to the altar or praying the prayer. His Sunday school teacher and mamma glows with pride and pats him on the head, telling him what a good little boy he was to accept Jesus in his heart. The hero of his story becomes......him. Not God, who gave him a new heart that caused him to respond in faith and repentance.

You can learn a lot by peoples' testimonies and the things they give credit to. View attachment 212840

Why do you continually misrepresent the other side... is that because your paradigm has flaws as well?

Why do you continually misrepresent the other side... is that because your paradigm has flaws as well?

I am not misrepresenting.

The view of free-willers is that God does not really choose.

He only reacts to their choice.

Either that, or they claim he doesn't choose individuals by claiming that God only elected Christ, and the believer is only elected when he places his faith in Christ, and is united with him.

So, conditional election (based on foreseen faith) and corporate election (based on inclusion in Christ by their free-will choice) are the two typical free-willer claims.

Both are false, and deny that God sovereignly chooses only some of mankind.

They cannot make sense of 1 Cor 1:26ff, where it plainly teaches that God selected particular individuals with negative traits (in the worldly manner of speaking) in order to show his glory more clearly, and to eliminate the possibility of boasting.

And, they have not explained how a man with a stony heart produces faith and repentance from it. This is the essence of free-willer theology. Their view is: A spiritually dead man with a stony heart must produce faith and repentance, in order to receive a heart of flesh. This is how Scripture describes the state of the fallen man. My conviction is: God gives the spiritually dead man, with a heart of stone, a new heart of flesh, giving him spiritual life, and his new heart of flesh produces faith and repentance.

Pretty simple, really. The free-will view requires from man what he cannot produce. The Reformed view says God gives the man the means to produce faith and repentance, which is a heart of flesh that can produce it.

And, free-willers simply get angry because they know what I am saying is true and they cannot defend their position against my explanations.

EG, why is it you never post scriptures to support your theology? Why are you attacking UIC, instead of refuting his theology.

If there is such a thing as "free will" then post the verses. I've looked, and those 2 words never appear together in the Bible. Not in the OT or the NT.

If it is such an important doctrine, surely there would be many verses explaining free will, examples of free will, and demonstrations of how and why it works! If you want to talk about the importance of the cross, for example, the word appears all over the NT, and even in the OT. At first the disciples didn't understand, then Jesus opens their eyes to how important it is.

Same with election. The KJV lists election 6 times. Plus, there are many places that say God chose us, we did not chose him.

"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will," Eph 1:4-5

As far as God's love, the last 2 words in v 4 are , "in love." I can think of no greater love than for God, in his great love, to elect someone to salvation! God loves us. Even if your free will was true, (and I don't believe it is!) it would still be a sign of God's love that he saved you.

The Bible is clear that not one of us is good enough to be saved.

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus," Romans 3:23-24

What a miracle that in spite of our unrighteousness, our dead and unclean spirit, God elects us to be justified.

"Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have also obtained access into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of God’s glory." Romans 5:1-2

I went to Arminian churches for the first 25 years I was a Christian. I was faithful in my personal Bible studies, and I felt like what was being preached from the pulpit wasn't the same as what I was reading in my Bible. In seminary, we studied theology, including soteriology. We read material written by Arminians, articles on Lutheranism, and Reformers. And Catholics, Orthodox, and glimpsed a lot of other theology. We learned about the doctrinal changes in the history of Christianity. That was the first time I had ever heard about the Reformed viewpoint. By the end of year, I called myself a 2 1/2 point Calvinist. I kept studying theology on my own, and added another Tulip point. But I was stuck on God electing some, but not others. Then I learned more about the sovereignty of God. Someone recommended a book by RC Sproule, called "What is Reformed Theology?" It answered my last objections to Reformed Theology.

I think there are many biblical points which point to Reformed theology. But I think they can be summed up in one word "sovereignty." If we have some imaginary power like "free will," which does not appear in the Bible, it means that God is not sovereign. Because if we make the choice to be saved, then God is not on the throne. He might have been the creator or designer if the universe, but he is no longer interested in the daily workings of our lives. He just leaves us to make our own minds up, but with a heart of stone, dead in our trespasses!

But that is NOT what the Bible says.

"I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. I will remove the heart of stone from your body and give you a heart of flesh." Ezekiel 36:26

Paul refers to Ezekiel in this passage.

"revealing that you are a letter of Christ, delivered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on stone tablets but on tablets of human hearts." 2 Cor. 3:3

I don't know about you, but dead rocks do not have the capacity to choose. I didn't! Rocks are dead and lifeless. But GOD declares he will give us a heart of living flesh. And that is what God did for me. He took my hard, dead heart, revealed himself to me, after he saved me.

Any other approach is works based, because we are in control, not God. And that is not who God is! He is in control, and he loved us and elected and called us, and saves us. Dead people cannot change. And we are all dead in our sins, before God saves us!

"And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, 29 because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say about these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 Indeed, he who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is the one who will condemn? Christ is the one who died (and more than that, he was raised), who is at the right hand of God, and who also is interceding for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will trouble, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?" Romans 8:28-35

This part of the passage answers many questions for me.
"Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies." Romans 8:33

Something more for you to ponder! Here's a link that might answer a question or two you might have.

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/chosen_by_god/what-is-free-will/

If you are going to respond to me with insults and condemnation, then don't bother. If you want to present your scriptural support, we can continue this discussion! I hope you will find the verses, and show me why you believe that humans are in control of their salvation, and not God. I am
Always ready to learn!