(Refuting Penal Substitution) Jesus Did NOT Satisfy the Wrath of God On The Cross!!

[Angela53510]

Is there any scripture in the new testament that describes it this way?

It seems that, if God was not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), then repentance has to be available by free will to all unbelievers first. Right?

"revealing that you are a letter of Christ, delivered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on stone tablets but on tablets of human hearts" 2Cor. 3:3

"So then, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; what is old has passed away—look, what is new has come!" 2 Cor. 5:17
There are many more verses, I just remember these off the top of my head.

Before we are saved, we are dead in our trespasses and sin. A dead person can't make a choice. He needs God to make him alive, a new person in Christ. And that is when we follow Jesus, for the rest of our lives!

 

[Angela53510]

"chose this day who you will follow"

(Josh 24:15 If you have no desire to worship the LORD, choose today whom you will worship, whether it be the gods whom your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living. But I and my family will worship the LORD!" .)

What is the context of this quote? Is Joshua an unbeliever, choosing to follow Christ for the first time? Or is he not just a life time believer, but also the leader of all the Jews?

As leader of the Jews, he addresses other believers, and probably a few unbelievers. But as leader, he is basically addressing believers in God, and challenging them to follow God all the time, as he and his family are doing!

This is about sanctification, which is the journey we take with God, and yes, sanctification is synergistic. God leads, we choose to follow. But, if we don't "choose" to follow Christ, are we truly saved. See 1 John 2:19 if you don't believe me.

When we are talking justification, when God changes us, it is totally from a sovereign God. We simply cannot "choose" to be saved! Unbelievers are spiritually dead. Only God can change our dead hearts of stone to hearts of living flesh, metaphorically speaking, as Paul says.

This is my big objection to many in this forum. They just keep going with a verse they learned long ago, and never revisited. Learn about context - both historical, and in the passage and chapter surrounding the verse. Start to grow as a follower of Christ, and that means studying scholars and introductory theology books, and learning some basic hermeneutical rules for understanding Scripture. It is not simply a matter of copy and pasting a verse. But of actually looking at the whole passage, the chapter and the book. Googling "choose in the Bible" and coming up with out of context verses means nothing!

Joshua was encouraging believers to take the next step and follow Jesus, in order to be sanctified. No possibility he was just being saved and starting to follow Jesus. So many babes in Christ, who do not seem to want to grow up!

(I will say I know people here who have studied the Bible, and have come up with a different conclusion than me. I'm not talking about those people!
as for azamzimtoti, at least he tried and quoted an actual Bible verse, even if it was out of context!)

 

[Angela53510]

It is even more amusing to see someone continue to troll for Five Point Calvinism, which is rejected by the majority of Christians because it is TOTALLY UNBIBLICAL.

And to deny that Christ died for the sins of the whole world is HERESY.

Getting back to the OP, that too is heresy, since the Bible clearly teaches penal substitution for the sins of the whole world.

Since the 5 point TULIP was formulated early in the 20th century, it really is not the litmus test as to whether you are Reformed or not. I've never read Calvin, although I have his "Institutes" on my Kindle. Maybe one day, I will read it!

It took many steps to break away from Arminianism. Yes, I believed what some of you do. But the more I read my Bible, the more convinced I was something was wrong with what I believed. It did not fit with what I was reading in my Bible. I really had barely heard of either doctrine, till I went to seminary, 25 years after God saved me. We were exposed to both views, by people who wrote in favour of each side. I decided I could probably handle 2 1/2 points, and then forgot about it. But God kept showing me that I was wrong. So I asked questions, read a few books, and realized I didn't fully understand the Doctrines of Grace. I am much farther down that road and I won't be going back.

I understand, unless people are born into Reformed traditions, they start as Arminians. God is the one who leads us to a better, biblically correct doctrine!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Except that in your paradigm you get to boast you were chosen for salvation while someone else was not.

They continue to fail to see this,

of course it does not matter what they think or feel. What matters is reality, and this is exactly what reality shows.

 

[EleventhHour]

They continue to fail to see this,

of course it does not matter what they think or feel. What matters is reality, and this is exactly what reality shows.

Indeed
People sure get heated when it comes to their sacred cow.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In other words, you are mentally lazy, and are just mouthing off in this forum. I've suspected this for a long time.

i thought you said this conversation would be over,?

i guess that was just fluff. I did not do what you think had to be done, so you resort to a silly attack, I am sorry if I hurt your feelings,

Anyone who posts in a BIBLE forum, and isn't willing to make an effort to show scripturally how he reached his conclusions should not really be here.

anyone who claims they know the Bible and can not figure out what passages people are referring to probably should not be discussing the Bible,

I did not see the apostles write down the passage and verses when they quoted or paraphrased the OT in their writings or their teachings, I guess they had a better audience who actually knew their word?

you see here is the problem, I have had this conversation with United for Christ, yourself and many of your brethren so many times, I posted verses, I posted passages, I showed why I could not see it as you do. And all I did was get attacked by som, belittled by others, and if I remember eight, only a few of my close friends would have any kind of sane discussion where we eventually agreed to disagree

i personally am sick of trying, because it is a waste of time, so I paraphrase, if you don‘t like it, well I can’t help you,

The problem with your so-called paraphrases is they don't work. They are a mish mash of parts of verses that are out of context. Some if it you probably formulated years ago, and have never revisited it.

I believed as you did, a decade or so ago. But I keep reading the Bible, praying, and God has shown me where I went wrong, through the actual Word of God. You are stuck in the past. I can't argue with you, because you give no Scriptures to discuss.

And yes, scholars do disagree. But they know their Bibles inside out, and they argue from what Scripture says, not some mishmash they pieced together decades ago. They are current on their Bible studies. My Greek teacher was amazing, the things he knew. And he was also very irenic when people disagreed with him. We disagreed on the matter of women in ministry. But we agreed on the texts, and Greek words that made the difference. What we disagreed on was the translation of a single word, from Greek. We agreed to agree to disagree. But we could do that because we knew the Bible, the relevant passages and Greek.

You set yourself up as an expert and berate people on many things. But you never post a verse of passage to support your beliefs. Again, that is lazy, and wrong! So tired of people arguing about stuff they can't even support!

Here is reality sister

a person says that he believes in free will, and he says one reason is because Jesus declared to Jerusalem how he wanted to take them as a mother hen, and put them under his wings, but they were unwilling

most people reading the word, understand what was said, when and where,

but then we have person B (you) calling fowl attacking person A and declare that because he did not write down the passage name and chapter and verse number he is unwilling to discuss the word and unwilling to look at the bible. Basically throwing what amounts to a temper tantrum (it really looks bad)

I would rethink what you are doing here. because not only are you being insincere and saying something you know not to be true, you are really hurting your testimony.

I repeat my words.

i am sorry, fatalism, if that is what you are trying to enforce. Gives God a bad name in my view, I do not like it, and I will not sit by and just let it flow without calling it out,

however, I try not to get into to heated of a discussion over it, because I know they (at least some) are my brothers and sisters,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Indeed
People sure get heated when it comes to their sacred cow.

I think if we look, we have all done this a time or two, we need to judge ourselves also when we are guilty

 

[EleventhHour]

I think if we look, we have all done this a time or two, we need to judge ourselves also when we are guilty

Probably so

 

[Micaiah-imla]

We simply cannot "choose" to be saved!

Romans 1:16 reads:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

"revealing that you are a letter of Christ, delivered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on stone tablets but on tablets of human hearts" 2Cor. 3:3

"So then, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; what is old has passed away—look, what is new has come!" 2 Cor. 5:17
There are many more verses, I just remember these off the top of my head.

But this happens after one chooses to believe on Christ, is it not so?

Learn about context - both historical, and in the passage and chapter surrounding the verse.

This is not a wise way to understand scripture. After all, if I applied this same metric to Paul's writings, I'd have to question if he knew what he was talking about. For example (and there are others) in Acts 13:40 after preaching the gospel, Paul warns those who would reject the gospel by quoting Habakkuk 1:5:

Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.

Now if I were to learn about the context, both historical, and in the passage and chapter surrounding the scripture Paul was quoting from, I would wonder what was the meaning of his words after hearing the gospel he just preached if I did not believe what he just preached. After all, when you look up the scripture that Paul quoted from you read that the Chaldeans were going to be raised to march through the breadth of the land to possess the dwellings places that are not theirs. That they are coming for violence to gather the captivity. Huh?

Of course Paul was simply showing, by using that scripture, that this miracle of the Gospel of Christ and the resurrection of the dead,
and that all men would be justified by believing this good news, would not be believed by the despisers who will perish because of their unbelief. This is not indicated anywhere in the book of Habakkuk.

Start to grow as a follower of Christ, and that means studying scholars and introductory theology books, and learning some basic hermeneutical rules for understanding Scripture.

This is a lie, with all due respect.

The scripture says:

Speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things (Ephesians 4:15).
Thy word is truth (John 17:17).
As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby (1 Peter 2:2).

What you are telling us we should do to grow as a follower of Christ is the perfect recipe for stopping growth and to lead into error. This brings to mind the scripture that says "after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth" (2 Timothy 4:3). This is how every false teaching survives, by people seeking to the scholars, theology books (philosophy), and hermeneutics. All sects have their teaching tools.

For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are lead of them are destroyed (Isaiah 9:16).

Should not a people seek unto their God...To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isaiah 8:19-20).

It is not simply a matter of copy and pasting a verse.

But isn't this the very thing Paul did (Romans 3:10-18)?

Would you attempt to question an inspired writer of God on his teaching techniques?

 

[Nehemiah6]

God is the one who leads us to a better, biblically correct doctrine!

How can God lead anyone to believe that Christ died only for a handful of "elect", and not for the sins of the whole world? You have to start with this false doctrine and either support it with Scripture or reject it as false doctrine.

So let's take just one example to prove that God wanted the world of humanity to know without the shadow of a doubt that Christ did indeed die for the sins of the whole world.

So let's ask ourselves a few questions:

1. Was John the Baptist the greatest of all the OT prophets? YES

2. Did John have a very special birth and a very special ministry? YES

3. Did John always speak as a prophet of God? YES

4. Did John say these words as recorded by the apostle John: "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world"? YES

So in fact it is God speaking through John and telling us that the Lord Jesus Christ -- the Lamb of God -- would literally take away the sin of the world.

Can there be any doubt whatsoever that this means exactly what it says? Since all human being are sinners by birth and by choice, "the sin of the world" would be all the sins of humanity. AND THIS ONE VERSE REFUTES FIVE POINT CALVINISM.

For those who might try to weasel out of the meaning of "the world" the concordances and lexicons will tell you that this means exactly what it says.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon (showing the reference to John 1:29)
STRONGS NT 2889: κόσμος (kosmos)

5. the inhabitants of the world: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷκόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9(Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )):Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets); ; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); ; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf.Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536)); ἀρχαῖος κόσμος, of the antediluvians, 2 Peter 2:5;γέννασθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 16:21; ἔρχεσθαι εἰς τόνκόσμον (John 9:39) and εἰς τόν κόσμον τοῦτον, to make its appearance or come into existence among men, spoken of the light which in Christ shone upon men, John 1:9; John 3:19,

So now that Five Point Calvinism has been refuted FROM SCRIPTURE are you prepared to give it up as false doctrine?

 

[Kolistus]

How can God lead anyone to believe that Christ died only for a handful of "elect", and not for the sins of the whole world? You have to start with this false doctrine and either support it with Scripture or reject it as false doctrine.

So let's take just one example to prove that God wanted the world of humanity to know without the shadow of a doubt that Christ did indeed die for the sins of the whole world.

So let's ask ourselves a few questions:

1. Was John the Baptist the greatest of all the OT prophets? YES

2. Did John have a very special birth and a very special ministry? YES

3. Did John always speak as a prophet of God? YES

4. Did John say these words as recorded by the apostle John: "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world"? YES

So in fact it is God speaking through John and telling us that the Lord Jesus Christ -- the Lamb of God -- would literally take away the sin of the world.

Can there be any doubt whatsoever that this means exactly what it says? Since all human being are sinners by birth and by choice, "the sin of the world" would be all the sins of humanity. AND THIS ONE VERSE REFUTES FIVE POINT CALVINISM.

For those who might try to weasel out of the meaning of "the world" the concordances and lexicons will tell you that this means exactly what it says.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon (showing the reference to John 1:29)
STRONGS NT 2889: κόσμος (kosmos)

5. the inhabitants of the world: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷκόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9(Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )):Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets); ; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); ; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf.Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536)); ἀρχαῖος κόσμος, of the antediluvians, 2 Peter 2:5;γέννασθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 16:21; ἔρχεσθαι εἰς τόνκόσμον (John 9:39) and εἰς τόν κόσμον τοῦτον, to make its appearance or come into existence among men, spoken of the light which in Christ shone upon men, John 1:9; John 3:19,

So now that Five Point Calvinism has been refuted FROM SCRIPTURE are you prepared to give it up as false doctrine?

Sadly what we have seen is people usually double down on their error.

 

[Absolutely]

View attachment 212637

Hilarious

 

[G2RBeliever]

1Corinthians 1:5-6 That in everything ye are enriched by HIM,in all utterance,and in ALL knowledge.

Hebrews 9: 24-26/28 "For Christ is not entered into the Holy places made with hands,which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for US: Not yet that He should offer himself often,as the high priest entereth into the Holy places every year with the blood of others; For then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself..... So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation"

Romans 10:13 For WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

2Corinthians7: 9-10 Now I rejoice,not that ye were made SORRY,but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made SORRY after a GODLY MANNER, that ye might recieve damage by us in nothing. For GODLY SORROW workers repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

i thought we were takling about the OP doctrine my bad.

i love reformed church. good.

how are you doing?