Not By Works

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mailmandan

mailmandan

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Apr 7, 2014
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#129,341
lightbearer said:
The Gospel; salvation.

Here look....

1Cor 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

Paul is doing something for the Gospel's sake that he might be a partaker of it, the Gospel with the people he is speaking to.

Then he says

1Cor 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

As we can see Paul relates this doing something for the Gospel to RUNNING in a race that you might receive The prize, partaking of the Gospel, obtaining salvation.

1Cor 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

Paul states RUN WE MIGHT Receive, obtain the PRIZE, Partaking of the GOSPEL, the INCORRUPTIBLE CROWN.

He continues

1Cor 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly ( not aimlessly;not as one who has no fixed goal) so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

Paul says he RUNS that he MIGHT Receive the PRIZE, obtaining the GOSPEL, the INCORRUPTIBLE CROWN. Not aimlessly is he running, i.e. not as one who has no fixed goal. But as one that may obtain the prize, the incorruptible crown, partaking of the Gospel, Salvation.

Then before going into examples in chapter 11 of what happens to those who do not run that they MIGHT Receive the PRIZE, obtain the GOSPEL, the INCORRUPTIBLE CROWN. Not aimlessly running, i.e. not as one who has no fixed goal. But as one that may obtain the prize, the incorruptible crown, partaking of the Gospel, Salvation.

He defines this running he is doing for the Gospel, this discipline that they MIGHT Receive the PRIZE, obtain the GOSPEL, the INCORRUPTIBLE CROWN.

1Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway (REPROBATE, REJECTED).

Paul says he runs, in that he keeps his body into subjection lest by any means he be a Castaway; A REPROBATE, REJECTED and unaccepted in respects to obtaining the prize of the Gospel, the incorruptible crown, life everlasting with the Father and Son for eternity.

Then he continues in chapter 11 and gives examples of what happens to those who do not run that they MIGHT Receive the PRIZE, obtain the GOSPEL, the INCORRUPTIBLE CROWN. life everlasting with the Father and Son for eternity.

In closing in respect to this topic he says.

Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1Cor 10:11,12

I would be amiss if I failed to mention the Greek word for Castaway in verse 9:27 is a real interesting word. It is also translated REPROBATE and REJECTED in the KJV of the New Testament.
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Well that's your biased interpretation, but I'm not buying it. A prize is not a gift. Period.
In regards to the Greek word for castaway in 1 Corinthians 9:27:

Strong's Concordance
adokimos: failing to pass the test
Original Word: ἀδόκιμος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: adokimos
Phonetic Spelling: (ad-ok'-ee-mos)
Definition: Admin, an Israelite
Usage: failing to pass the test, unapproved, counterfeit.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 96: ἀδόκιμος

ἀδόκιμος, (δόκιμος) (from Euripides down), not standing the test, not approved; properly of metals and coin, ἀργύριον, Isaiah 1:22; Proverbs 25:4; νόμισμα, Plato, legg. see p. 742 a., others; hence, which does not prove itself to be such as it ought: γῆ, of sterile soil, Hebrews 6:8; in a moral sense (A. V.reprobate), 1 Corinthians 9:27; 2 Corinthians 13:5-7; νοῦς, Romans 1:28; περί τήνπίστιν, 2 Timothy 3:8; hence, unfit for something: πρός πᾶν ἔργον ἀγαθόνἀδόκιμοι, Titus 1:16.

https://biblehub.com/greek/96.htm

The context of 1 Corinthians 9 here is in regards to Paul's reward/prize, not salvation and he uses the analogy of an Olympic race in which he says, "those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it." Athletes in the race receive a perishable wreath, but believers an imperishable. The Bible talks about 5 different crowns. The imperishable crown, the crown of rejoicing, the crown of righteousness, the crown of glory, the crown of life. So these crowns simply represent salvation by works to you? In Revelation 19, we read that when Jesus returns His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on His head are many crowns. So your argument about "losing salvation" in 1 Corinthians 9:27 is biased and INCONCLUSIVE.
 
Kolistus

Kolistus

Well-known member
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Feb 3, 2020
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eternally-gratefull said:
It does work

sorry you can try to take your works to God, he will simply tell you to,depart, he never knew you

i will pray for you
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False judgment call on the salvation of another man and claiming to know what He will say to me. You just said im not saved because I believed what the verses say in Deuteronomy IN CONTEXT. You just said im not saved because I dont hold to your view
Failure to address what was said, just saying "it does work" doesnt make it so.

The cult of OSAS is rampant here, as if NOSAS / OSAS debate has anything to do with salvation. Its behavior like this and especially of the OP that is disgrace to Christ and much more harmful than being wrong in a theological debate, Jesus saves and no theology test is needed to pass. Yet in the cult of OSAS you need to believe in OSAS, no matter what you think the Bible says, or you just arent saved automatically. Thats most Christians throughout history. Many orthodox Christians were martyred in the last decade, too bad they dont believe in OSAS, they are now in hell according to the cult of OSAS. Im using the word CULT because not every OSAS believer believes this way, that you have to agree with them or you arent saved. I know many who still consider Lutherans, Pentecostals, Methodists, Orthodox, freewill Baptists Christians.

If I read depart from the living God, I believe what it says no ifs or buts to it.

Dont even talk to me unless you are coming correct. We all know you arent praying for me, you dont even know my name so cut that nonsense and get off your high horse.

You are ignored. Stop making judgment calls on people's salvation over the internet.
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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#129,343
^ Kolistus, (note: I've only read this last page and have not been following the recent convo)… I'm curious as to your thoughts on the following:

James 2 -

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, having offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that his faith was working with his works, and by his works, his faith was perfected. 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled, saying, “And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness,”e and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.


Do you believe Abraham's justification was in question, in God's mind, for the some 20 years [or something like that] between his first "believed God" and his [MUCH LATER] offering up of Isaac on the altar?


[for the readers: note the LENGTHY period of time shown to have been between these, as indicated in the Rom4:1-12 text and its related OT passages]
 
VCO

VCO

Senior Member
#129,344
Oct 14, 2013
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#129,344
Kolistus said:
. . .
The cult of OSAS is rampant here, . . . Yet in the cult of OSAS you need to believe in OSAS, no matter what you think the Bible says, . . .
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Just to make SURE YOU KNOW what WE BELIEVE that these verses really do say what BIBLE TEACHES Literally,
here are some of the OSAS Verses:


2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
5 He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

Romans 4:3-5 (NET)
3 For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4 Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited due to grace but due to obligation.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Ephesians 4:30 (NKJV)
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God,
by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
{There is a major OSAS VERSE!}

Ephesians 2:4-5 (HCSB)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us,
5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NJB)
8 Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God;
9 not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit.

Romans 5:8-11 (HCSB)
8 But God proves His own love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us!
9 Much more then, since we have now been declared righteous by His blood, we will be saved through Him from wrath.
10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, ⌊then how⌋ much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by His life!
11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ. We have now received this reconciliation through Him.

1 Corinthians 15:10 (HCSB)
10 But by God’s grace I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not ineffective. However, I worked more than any of them, yet not I, but God’s grace that was with me.


1 Peter 1:3-5 (HCSB)
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 11:6 (NASB)
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 3:5 (HCSB)
5 ⌊It is⌋ not that we are competent in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our competence is from God.

Philippians 2:13 (HCSB)
13 For it is God who is working in you, ⌊enabling you⌋ both to desire and to work out His good purpose.

Ephesians 1:11-14 (HCSB)
11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will,
12 so that we who had already put our hope in the Messiah might bring praise to His glory.
13 When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him [Long before you can do your first work, so Obedience is Part of your Agape Love, that you do after you are SAVED.], you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
14 He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.

2 Timothy 2:19 (ESV)
19 But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

John 10:27-28 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.

2 John 1:2 (HCSB)
2 because of the truth that remains in us and will be with us forever.

🕆

We teach that Obedience has NEVER been part of Salvation, HOWEVER, Obedience is part of Our AGAPE LOVE, Rom. 5:5.

John 14:15 (HCSB)
15 “If you love Me [Born Again], you will keep My commands.

1 John 5:3 (HCSB)
3 For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden, [when done out of Agape Love.]


Only Obedience that is done out of Agape LOVE, is accepted by GOD. It has NOTHING to do with SALVATION or maintaining it.
They have to be solely because we LOVE HIM, OR they are Wood, Hay, and Stubble at best, OR they are FILTHY RAGS at Worst.


1 John 3:14-19 (HCSB)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.
15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
16 This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.
17 If anyone has this world’s goods and sees his brother in need but closes his eyes to his ⌊need⌋—how can God’s love reside in him?
18 Little children, we must not love with word or speech, but with truth and action.
19 This is how we will know we belong to the truth and will convince our conscience in His presence,


🕆
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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Kolistus said:
Have you read the context of the quote from Hebrews 13:5?
Click to expand...
I realize you are referring to something else ;) , but I just wanted to make a quick comment on the "context" of the actual Hebrews 13 passage... esp where v.14 (a verse notoriously misapplied by the "amill-teachings" as I see it) says, "For HERE [G5602] we do not have an abiding city, but we are seeking for the coming one" (which the "amill-teachings" insist means there is no "future MK age" [i.e. no city "HERE"])... I believe, of course, that does not mean what they suggest it means, because I think the word (in bold) carries the following meaning, "G5602 - hōde - "demonstrative adverb from G3592 - hode - 'this, present'"... which can apply to "this present AGE" just as well as it could "this present LOCATION"

(I believe the former is correct ^, in view of the whole body of scripture concerning that particular Subject, as well as the context of the epistle to the Hebrews, which, in my view, is written in a more broad way [for lack of a better way of saying it] so that it will apply also to those "Hebrews" coming to faith IN/WITHIN the future trib yrs [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"], if that makes sense. I've posted before about how some of the details are stated in more of a general/broad sense, here in Hebrews... I'm forgetting any examples at the moment, but will come back later if any pop into my mind :D )


Just something to consider.

Carry on! :)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

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#129,346
Kolistus said:
False judgment call on the salvation of another man and claiming to know what He will say to me. You just said im not saved because I believed what the verses say in Deuteronomy IN CONTEXT. You just said im not saved because I dont hold to your view
Failure to address what was said, just saying "it does work" doesnt make it so.

The cult of OSAS is rampant here, as if NOSAS / OSAS debate has anything to do with salvation. Its behavior like this and especially of the OP that is disgrace to Christ and much more harmful than being wrong in a theological debate, Jesus saves and no theology test is needed to pass. Yet in the cult of OSAS you need to believe in OSAS, no matter what you think the Bible says, or you just arent saved automatically. Thats most Christians throughout history. Many orthodox Christians were martyred in the last decade, too bad they dont believe in OSAS, they are now in hell according to the cult of OSAS. Im using the word CULT because not every OSAS believer believes this way, that you have to agree with them or you arent saved. I know many who still consider Lutherans, Pentecostals, Methodists, Orthodox, freewill Baptists Christians.

If I read depart from the living God, I believe what it says no ifs or buts to it.

Dont even talk to me unless you are coming correct. We all know you arent praying for me, you dont even know my name so cut that nonsense and get off your high horse.

You are ignored. Stop making judgment calls on people's salvation over the internet.
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I guess Hod hit a nerve. Now will you be trained by it or continue in anger?

Dude you can be self righteous all you want the fact remains IF you go to God expose eating your deeds to be part of your salvation he WILL tell you he never knew you

I am just warning you what you do with it is on your own

and you say I judge you when you say I follow a cult? So it’s ok for you to judge me but not ok for Me to judge your gospel?

whatever Dude. We have had enough of you hypocritical people here. Do what you will, but judge not what you refuse to do yourself
 
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EleventhHour

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#129,347
Kolistus said:
False judgment call on the salvation of another man and claiming to know what He will say to me. You just said im not saved because I believed what the verses say in Deuteronomy IN CONTEXT. You just said im not saved because I dont hold to your view
Failure to address what was said, just saying "it does work" doesnt make it so.

The cult of OSAS is rampant here, as if NOSAS / OSAS debate has anything to do with salvation. Its behavior like this and especially of the OP that is disgrace to Christ and much more harmful than being wrong in a theological debate, Jesus saves and no theology test is needed to pass. Yet in the cult of OSAS you need to believe in OSAS, no matter what you think the Bible says, or you just arent saved automatically. Thats most Christians throughout history. Many orthodox Christians were martyred in the last decade, too bad they dont believe in OSAS, they are now in hell according to the cult of OSAS. Im using the word CULT because not every OSAS believer believes this way, that you have to agree with them or you arent saved. I know many who still consider Lutherans, Pentecostals, Methodists, Orthodox, freewill Baptists Christians.

If I read depart from the living God, I believe what it says no ifs or buts to it.

Dont even talk to me unless you are coming correct. We all know you arent praying for me, you dont even know my name so cut that nonsense and get off your high horse.

You are ignored. Stop making judgment calls on people's salvation over the internet.
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For some cults like Catholicism martyrdom ensured their salvation, maybe even elevation to sainthood and veneration throughout history, and all those denominations you listed are her offspring...

Amazing how wrong people can be... like most ...NO.... all your post!

If you do not believe in eternal life as a gift from Jesus not sure what you are trusting him for then... hope of eternal life?.. that is not what He offers.
 
Kolistus

Kolistus

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Feb 3, 2020
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#129,348
EleventhHour said:
If you do not believe in eternal life as a gift from Jesus not sure what you are trusting him for then... hope of eternal life?.. that is not what He offers.
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It actually is, stop teaching the Bible please.

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
1John 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Eternal life is indeed a promise, something that will happen to us once we pass on. Eternal life is in the Son, that is what the Bible teaches, which is why it also says, ABIDE IN ME, and those who ABIDE in Christ, have present tense eternal life, since that life is in His son. But we are still to die here in the flesh, so because of that its still HOPE of eternal life. Our salvation will be completed once we are in our resurrection bodies, fully redeemed body soul and spirit.

All I have seen the cult members do here is play word games and use insults and crack jokes about people they supposedly care about.
You are in an echo chamber and the fact that you just discredit all Christians of the past as well, speaks volumes. You are put on ignore as just another cult member. I hope you repent of your condemning statements of Christians throughout history.
 
O

oldethennew

Banned
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Feb 28, 2016
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#129,349
it says that we are 'saved by Hope' in Romans, but of course this is just 'one point' of the process' -
we are also saved by 'Grace', Abraham believed and God counted it to him as Righteousness -
there are so many facets to our Lord's Salvation process. also, 'repent and be baptized, and
you shall receive the gift of The Holy Spirit, which is the 'guarantee of our Inheritance -
and it also says in another place, a man asked Jesus, 'What shall I do to inherit Eternal Life',
and Jesus answered, 'If you want to inherit Eternal Life, Keep The Commandments'. -
and so, to put the question in one doctrinal BOX is not 'considering' the 'whole council of God'...

"Oh the depths and riches of God".
 
14meatcc

14meatcc

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Feb 17, 2020
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#129,351
True saving faith is faith in the truth. To deny the saving grace and power of God to fulfill our complete justification in Christ is denying the truth. We must worship in spirit and in truth, and it must be done in love, or it will profit nothing.
How can you freely love God when you are consumed with the lie that you must labor to obtain his grace. Both the truth and the love is hindered by this lie. You know not who you worship.
Good works are good because God deemed them so. They are not planned labors in love, they are a constant that shines through the unfeigned love and gratitude you have for God because he saved your sorry butt because he loves you.
How can outward acts or scenerios we deem good be viewed as thst when it's upon the perception and opinion of the onlooker(s), who are sinful imperfect beings as it is? Good works are a constant, nor a planned act.
Your belief is the bottom line good work because you believe the truth, and the truth has made you free, and that encourages love, which is the turnkey to everything.
Those who say you are able to lose your salvation are blatantly denying the power of Christ in defeating the devil, and death.
You MUST worship God in truth, and that truth in itself defines the character of God. You worship a God you've created upon lies. You worship a false God of your understanding, which is worshipping an idol.
You can't believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord and savior if you believe you must achieve, or you can lose your salvation.
Where is the power and wisdom of your God?
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#129,352
#129,352
Kolistus said:
It actually is, stop teaching the Bible please.

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
1John 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Eternal life is indeed a promise, something that will happen to us once we pass on. Eternal life is in the Son, that is what the Bible teaches, which is why it also says, ABIDE IN ME, and those who ABIDE in Christ, have present tense eternal life, since that life is in His son. But we are still to die here in the flesh, so because of that its still HOPE of eternal life. Our salvation will be completed once we are in our resurrection bodies, fully redeemed body soul and spirit.

All I have seen the cult members do here is play word games and use insults and crack jokes about people they supposedly care about.
You are in an echo chamber and the fact that you just discredit all Christians of the past as well, speaks volumes. You are put on ignore as just another cult member. I hope you repent of your condemning statements of Christians throughout history.
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The "hope of eternal life" is a present possession.... this does not mean they are hoping for eternal ...that makes scripture contradictory.
We have hope in the eternal life we possess.

Your are being defensive because you are taking things personally... am I speak about not individual people but the false hopes and beliefs of those people because rather than search for truth themselves they rely upon institutions to impart truth... that is a problem.

Also with regards to "Christian" and people going to church that does not make them a Christian.

"Cult member" prove that label?
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#129,353
#129,353
Kolistus said:
It actually is, stop teaching the Bible please.

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
1John 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Eternal life is indeed a promise, something that will happen to us once we pass on. Eternal life is in the Son, that is what the Bible teaches, which is why it also says, ABIDE IN ME, and those who ABIDE in Christ, have present tense eternal life, since that life is in His son. But we are still to die here in the flesh, so because of that its still HOPE of eternal life. Our salvation will be completed once we are in our resurrection bodies, fully redeemed body soul and spirit.

All I have seen the cult members do here is play word games and use insults and crack jokes about people they supposedly care about.
You are in an echo chamber and the fact that you just discredit all Christians of the past as well, speaks volumes. You are put on ignore as just another cult member. I hope you repent of your condemning statements of Christians throughout history.
Click to expand...
Are you Catholic?
 
Tellion

Tellion

Junior Member
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Jan 8, 2003
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EleventhHour said:
Are you Catholic?
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They question our complete faith in salvation... whereby we have the courage to go out and serve regardless of failure.
We question the finite (partial, incomplete) work of a god that would leave any of the perfect participation (that is required) open to sinful men.
 
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EleventhHour

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#129,355
#129,355
Tellion said:
They question our complete faith in salvation... whereby we have the courage to go out and serve regardless of failure.
We question the finite (partial, incomplete) work of a god that would leave any of the perfect participation (that is required) open to sinful men.
Click to expand...
Very true

god small "g" indeed appropriate!

Let send this to >>>>>> @Judges1318, @RebuildJesussChurch @Kolistus and of course @lightbearer
 
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EleventhHour

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#129,356
14meatcc said:
My name is Bob. And I used to go by 50C1AL0N3.
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I remember you .. you had a "tirade" against me as UnderGrace... but it was not really directed at me but someone else.

It was a bit of a mess... I hope you are back here with permission, because it was only until later that I realized it was not directed really towards me.
 
Tellion

Tellion

Junior Member
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EleventhHour

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#129,358
Tellion said:
Thanks, so long as you're aware that my time is going to be consumed here pretty quickly in other endeavors. I'm not abandoning you. Just have prior obligations. But from what I can tell, you are all pretty well equipped. I'll drop in every now and then.
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I sent it to them because it mirrors their belief perfectly ... they don't respond to me anyway so no worries there.:)
 
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