Not By Works

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TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,112
113
It actually is, stop teaching the Bible please.
Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
[…]
Eternal life is indeed a promise, something that will happen to us once we pass on. Eternal life is in the Son, that is what the Bible teaches, which is why it also says, ABIDE IN ME, and those who ABIDE in Christ, have present tense eternal life, since that life is in His son.
But we are still to die here in the flesh, so because of that its still HOPE of eternal life. Our salvation will be completed once we are in our resurrection bodies, fully redeemed body soul and spirit.
Kolistus, in that last section I quoted ^ , are you then saying that the "eternal life" we have NOW [/possess at some point, upon faith in Christ] is at risk of, at some later point, being revoked and no longer "eternal" (like, if we should fail to do such and such)?

Consider the following... a commentary excerpt by Wm Kelly on that verse in Titus 1:2 (in your post ^ ):

[quoting]

"The apostle pursues what has been already begun in describing his mission. It was "upon hope of life eternal which God that cannot lie promised before the times of the ages (or everlasting),* but manifested in its own seasons His word in a preaching, with which I was entrusted, according to command of our Saviour God" (vers. 2, 3).
"*This is a phrase peculiar in itself and difficult to transfuse well and truly into English. "Eternal" is clear, as said of God, life, punishment of sin. etc. But in combination with "times" it appears harsh, as in Romans 16:25, and still more where πρὸ precedes, as in 2 Timothy 1:9 and here. Mr. T. S. Green gives "in all time" and "before all time" respectively, which seems weak or worse for the first case. Mr. Darby for Rom. 16 prefers "in [the] times of the ages," and for 2 Tim. and Titus "before the ages of time." But why invert thus? Would it not be better to adhere to the same order in all three, "times of ages?" Perhaps indeed "times everlasting" might be admissible for although the A.V. uses "eternal" and "everlasting" interchangeably, the latter is not necessarily so absolute as the former. We might say "before times everlasting" but hardly "before times eternal," and for more reasons than one. It is unfounded to conceive a difference of sense between its use in 2 Tim. 1 and Titus 1; and the wish springs from misunderstanding of the truth.

"Life eternal is really given to the believer now; and this is a revelation by no means uncommon in the writings of our apostle. Its present possession is emphatically prominent in the writings of John, whether the Gospel or his First Epistle. But Paul frequently treats it according to its future display, as in the Synoptic Gospels. In the well-known passage of his, Romans 6:22-23, we have it clearly: "Ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end life eternal. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is life eternal in Christ Jesus our Lord." He looks on to life in glory.

"Here he describes his apostolic work in preaching as conditioned by the hope of life eternal. It is thus wholly different from the expectations of the pious Jew in Old Testament times, grounded as they were in the main on the promises of God to the fathers. If a prophet spoke of eternal life at all, it was bound up with the future kingdom of the Messiah. Under His sceptre the Israelite looked for every outward blessing, for all honour and power as well as goodness from God, for the display of beneficence and of blessing in every form; and all this will surely be accomplished on earth, without fail or stint, according to the word of the living God.

"The apostle's work had a wholly different character; for it was based upon the total rejection and the heavenly exaltation of the Lord Jesus, whereby that hope of life eternal is realised now, and in a way altogether superior to the testimony of the prophets (Ps. 133, Dan. 12). So the Lord as the great Prophet on Olivet declared that the living righteous of the nations, who are severed from the wicked, enter into life eternal when He shall have come as the Son of man in His glory. Even the sheep realise their place but little: grace will abound exceedingly. But the apostle proceeds to show that the promise which the Christian actually enjoys goes not merely beyond the prophets, or the human race on earth, but back into eternity. This was necessarily a promise within the Godhead. The God that knew no falsehood promised it before the times of the ages. So we saw in 2 Timothy 1:9, that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace that was given us in Christ Jesus before the times of the ages. It was a promise within the Godhead when neither the world nor man yet existed, and therefore had a far higher character than promises made in time to the fathers."

--William Kelly, Commentary on Titus

[from Bible Hub; end quoting; bold, underline and color emphasis mine]



____________

We presently possess "eternal life" (and this LIFE is IN HIS SON)… and because of our vital connection WITH HIM, we have eternal life (HIS eternal LIFE)... furthermore, we are called "the purchased-possession" (Eph1:14)
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Kolistus, in that last section I quoted ^ , are you then saying that the "eternal life" we have NOW [/possess at some point, upon faith in Christ] is at risk of, at some later point, being revoked and no longer "eternal" (like, if we should fail to do such and such)?

Consider the following... a commentary excerpt by Wm Kelly on that verse in Titus 1:2 (in your post ^ ):

[quoting]

"The apostle pursues what has been already begun in describing his mission. It was "upon hope of life eternal which God that cannot lie promised before the times of the ages (or everlasting),* but manifested in its own seasons His word in a preaching, with which I was entrusted, according to command of our Saviour God" (vers. 2, 3).
"*This is a phrase peculiar in itself and difficult to transfuse well and truly into English. "Eternal" is clear, as said of God, life, punishment of sin. etc. But in combination with "times" it appears harsh, as in Romans 16:25, and still more where πρὸ precedes, as in 2 Timothy 1:9 and here. Mr. T. S. Green gives "in all time" and "before all time" respectively, which seems weak or worse for the first case. Mr. Darby for Rom. 16 prefers "in [the] times of the ages," and for 2 Tim. and Titus "before the ages of time." But why invert thus? Would it not be better to adhere to the same order in all three, "times of ages?" Perhaps indeed "times everlasting" might be admissible for although the A.V. uses "eternal" and "everlasting" interchangeably, the latter is not necessarily so absolute as the former. We might say "before times everlasting" but hardly "before times eternal," and for more reasons than one. It is unfounded to conceive a difference of sense between its use in 2 Tim. 1 and Titus 1; and the wish springs from misunderstanding of the truth.

"Life eternal is really given to the believer now; and this is a revelation by no means uncommon in the writings of our apostle. Its present possession is emphatically prominent in the writings of John, whether the Gospel or his First Epistle. But Paul frequently treats it according to its future display, as in the Synoptic Gospels. In the well-known passage of his, Romans 6:22-23, we have it clearly: "Ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end life eternal. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is life eternal in Christ Jesus our Lord." He looks on to life in glory.

"Here he describes his apostolic work in preaching as conditioned by the hope of life eternal. It is thus wholly different from the expectations of the pious Jew in Old Testament times, grounded as they were in the main on the promises of God to the fathers. If a prophet spoke of eternal life at all, it was bound up with the future kingdom of the Messiah. Under His sceptre the Israelite looked for every outward blessing, for all honour and power as well as goodness from God, for the display of beneficence and of blessing in every form; and all this will surely be accomplished on earth, without fail or stint, according to the word of the living God.

"The apostle's work had a wholly different character; for it was based upon the total rejection and the heavenly exaltation of the Lord Jesus, whereby that hope of life eternal is realised now, and in a way altogether superior to the testimony of the prophets (Ps. 133, Dan. 12). So the Lord as the great Prophet on Olivet declared that the living righteous of the nations, who are severed from the wicked, enter into life eternal when He shall have come as the Son of man in His glory. Even the sheep realise their place but little: grace will abound exceedingly. But the apostle proceeds to show that the promise which the Christian actually enjoys goes not merely beyond the prophets, or the human race on earth, but back into eternity. This was necessarily a promise within the Godhead. The God that knew no falsehood promised it before the times of the ages. So we saw in 2 Timothy 1:9, that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace that was given us in Christ Jesus before the times of the ages. It was a promise within the Godhead when neither the world nor man yet existed, and therefore had a far higher character than promises made in time to the fathers."

--William Kelly, Commentary on Titus

[from Bible Hub; end quoting; bold, underline and color emphasis mine]



____________

We presently possess "eternal life" (and this LIFE is IN HIS SON)… and because of our vital connection WITH HIM, we have eternal life (HIS eternal LIFE)... furthermore, we are called "the purchased-possession"
You are to be commended for you effort to persuade @Kolistus but you are an "OSAS cult member."

Let us count that as a good thing!
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
The Gospel; salvation.

Here look, please take your time prayerfully.

1Cor 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

Paul is doing something for the Gospel's sake that he might be a partaker of it, the Gospel with the people he is speaking to.

Then he says

1Cor 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

As we can see Paul relates this doing something for the Gospel to RUNNING in a race that you might receive The prize, partaking of the Gospel, obtaining salvation.

1Cor 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

Paul states RUN WE MIGHT Receive, obtain the PRIZE, Partaking of the GOSPEL, the INCORRUPTIBLE CROWN.

He continues

1Cor 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly ( not aimlessly;not as one who has no fixed goal) so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:


Paul says he RUNS that he MIGHT Receive the PRIZE, obtaining the GOSPEL, the INCORRUPTIBLE CROWN. Not aimlessly is he running, i.e. not as one who has no fixed goal. But as one that may obtain the prize, the incorruptible crown, partaking of the Gospel, Salvation.

Then before going into examples in chapter 11 of what happens to those who do not run that they MIGHT Receive the PRIZE, obtain the GOSPEL, the INCORRUPTIBLE CROWN. Not aimlessly running, i.e. not as one who has no fixed goal. But as one that may obtain the prize, the incorruptible crown, partaking of the Gospel, Salvation.

He defines this running he is doing for the Gospel, this discipline that they MIGHT Receive the PRIZE, obtain the GOSPEL, the INCORRUPTIBLE CROWN.

1Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway (REPROBATE, REJECTED).

Paul says he runs, in that he keeps his body into subjection lest by any means he be a Castaway; A REPROBATE, REJECTED and unaccepted in respects to obtaining the prize of the Gospel, the incorruptible crown, life everlasting with the Father and Son for eternity.

Then he continues in chapter 11 and gives examples of what happens to those who do not run that they MIGHT Receive the PRIZE, obtain the GOSPEL, the INCORRUPTIBLE CROWN. life everlasting with the Father and Son for eternity.

In closing in respect to this topic he says.

Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1Cor 10:11,12

I would be amiss if I failed to mention the Greek word for Castaway in verse 9:27 is a real interesting word. It is also translated REPROBATE and REJECTED in the KJV of the New Testament.


You are right that there are Prizes or CROWNS that we can win during our walk with CHRIST, but you are wrong, that SALVATION is one of those Prizes or Crowns. SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT, and it was considered to be ours BEFORE TIME BEGAN.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Paul was apparently very fond of going to the GAMES, like the Olympic style of Games of his day. Hence he uses those games to relate to us how we are to run the Race.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27 (HCSB)
24 Don’t you know that the runners in a stadium all race, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way to win the prize.
25 Now everyone who competes exercises self-control in everything. However, they do it to receive a crown that will fade away, but we a crown that will never fade away.
26 Therefore I do not run like one who runs aimlessly or box like one beating the air.
27 Instead, I discipline my body and bring it under strict control, so that after preaching to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
[.That disqualified is NOT TALKING about our SALVATION, it is only talking about the Crowns we can win, during our walk with Jesus.]

Let me prove that to you:

1 Corinthians 3:9-15 (HCSB)
9 For we are God’s coworkers. You are God’s field, God’s building.
10 According to God’s grace that was given to me, I have laid a foundation as a skilled master builder, and another builds on it. But each one must be careful how he builds on it.
11 For no one can lay any other foundation than what has been laid down. That foundation is Jesus Christ. [.That is SALVATION, is in Jesus Christ ALONE. What you build on that FOUNDATION, is Characteristics of the Christian Life, that you may be worthy of Crowns we may or may not win. Only deeds done out of PURE AGAPE LOVE, the type of LOVE HE poured in us, Rom. 5:5; will qualify as gold, silver, and costly stones, and will qualify us for an Imperishable Crown.]
12 If anyone builds on that foundation with gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, or straw,
13 each one’s work will become obvious, for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire; the fire will test the quality of each one’s work.
14 If anyone’s work that he has built survives, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone’s work is burned up, it will be lost, but he will be saved; yet it will be like an escape through fire.


So work done for any motive other than I LOVE THE LORD, is wood, hay, or straw, and will be BURNED UP. The concept that I HAVE TO DO THIS, because it is my part of SALVATION, is NOTHING BUT WOOD, HAY, and STRAW, and will be burned up. If that person is Truly Born Again, though his or her FRUIT is Minimal, he will be saved. IF ALL of their works were done for the WRONG MOTIVE, he will experience WHALING AND GNASHING OF TEETH, as he or she will go to Hades/Hell. They were NEVER BORN AGAIN, and the Road they are on is the Broad Road that leads to Destruction.

So let me explain how the Olympic Games of Paul's day went. The Athletes that won were given a Perishable Crown made out branches with leaves, such as this in the Greek Games a few years ago:

So after the winning athlete was Crowned, he or she would walk over to the front row, where his King was Seated, Kneel, take off his Crown, and Cast it at his King's feet, and say, "I won this for you my King!"

Now we are told that our Crowns will be Imperishable Crowns, so we may get to keep it, or throw at JESUS CHRIST's feet. That Imperishable could mean it is made of gold or some other metal. Just speculating, Minimal Leaves or Lots of Leaves could represent how many of our deeds were DONE FOR THE RIGHT MOTIVE OF AGAPE LOVING THE LORD.


Either way IT NEVER REPRESENTED SALVATION.

Just so you know if your MOTIVE I WANT TO SERVE THE LORD TO GET AS MANY CROWNS AS I CAN GET, is a wrong MOTIVE, it is Greed and Pride.

It has to be because I AGAPE LOVE THE LORD and the Brethren!

Here are the Crowns we can win.

CROWN OF LIFE
CROWN OF JOY or REJOICING
CROWN OF HOPE
CROWN OF GLORYING

CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS
CROWN OF VICTORY
And from the Apocrypha they have additional Crowns, but not Inspired:
CROWN OF WISDOM
CROWN OF COMPETENCE
CROWN OF THE AGED
 

Tellion

Junior Member
Jan 8, 2003
279
354
63
Interesting I was thinking CC has been the cause of my OCD that I have acquired over the past few years!

:)
I know what you mean. I mean, not the hoarding part, that's a whole other kind of neurotic.... but the confessional oversharing OCD, yeah, I can understand your point.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
I know what you mean. I mean, not the hoarding part, that's a whole other kind of neurotic.... but the confessional oversharing OCD, yeah, I can understand your point.
Actually my OCD is my constant compulsion to REPUDIATE the argument that salvation is not really salvation aka NOSAS
 

Tellion

Junior Member
Jan 8, 2003
279
354
63
Actually my OCD is my constant compulsion to REPUDIATE the argument that salvation is not really salvation aka NOSAS
I'm sorry... not exactly what I meant when I said that, I was pointing out my own verbal compulsion, and saying with that, I can understand where you stand, even though we don't stand in exactly the same spot.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
I'm sorry... not exactly what I meant when I said that, I was pointing out my own verbal compulsion, and saying with that, I can understand where you stand, even though we don't stand in exactly the same spot.
I am speaking in a light tone... not a serious tone btw...

I am sorry I did not mean to make light of your OCD... I know that it presents many, many challenges in life.
I have worked with children with OCD and so I have some understanding.

I am thankful for the time you have been on this thread lately defending the Gospel of grace.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
She's against NO SASS because I keep telling her that I"m for NO SASS..

See here, EH!! No sassing me, young lady!! View attachment 212424
You are great with the play on words ... eh

Canadians use "eh" a lot, we are known for it, and the good thing about it, is it can pretty much mean anything you want it to .. eh
 

Tellion

Junior Member
Jan 8, 2003
279
354
63
I am speaking in a light tone... not a serious tone btw...

I am sorry I did not mean to make light of your OCD... I know that it presents many, many challenges in life.
I have worked with children with OCD and so I have some understanding.

I am thankful for the time you have been on this thread lately defending the Gospel of grace.
I didn't take it that way.

In some ways its a blessing, because it will indeed keep me in a conversation, once I get past my timidity.

Between my OCD, agoraphobia, and diabetes, I am still by no means crippled by them. I make it outdoors, am able to hold my tongue, and have more recently become healthier than I've ever been with diabetes (mostly due to my loving wife) They are just tools for me which I can certainly use to testify, which I'm working (should I be careful with that word?) on improving. My return to the church has been a long journey, and every day I'm faced with new challenges. At the very least, they lead me to praise my God every day.

I do thank you for your concern and compassion, however. It does not get tossed aside, as if unhelpful.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,112
113
You are to be commended for you effort to persuade @Kolistus but you are an "OSAS cult member."
Well, I was hoping to jar his memory on a brief blurb I made some time back (not that I really expect ppl to recall it :D )... how that...

--Jesus' words of "I GO TO PREPARE a place for you..." is not identical to

--the phrase [which will be said to the "nations [SHEEP of the nations]" getting ready to ENTER the MK age upon/at the time of His "RETURN" to the earth] "HAVING BEEN PREPARED for you FROM [apo; not 'BEFORE [pro]' as is used of OTHERS elsewhere ;) ] the foundation of the world"


["go TO PREPARE"... "HAVING BEEN PREPARED... FROM the foundation of the world"... see the distinction?? (which the article/commentary I placed in my previous post goes into, some)]


but you are an "OSAS cult member."
:) If it's not one thing, it's another. lol