If the Church Won't, the Government Will

So you are here to speak to a Christian Socialist Communist model then

Take the money you usually tithe to the church and give it to someone who actually needs it

Which means that your pastor(s) will have no income, and your missionaries will nave no support.

I don't know what has caused you to dig your heels in and be so opposed to pastors and the modern church, but it is Very disturbing to me.

I do not say this to fight with you.

I just wonder what in your life has transpired to cause you to be this dead set against the church in America.

God IS using pastors, deacons, church members, church buildings, church tithes/offerings, and church ministries for His glory.

I know that there are some pastors, etc who are out of line.

But I believe that making sweeping generalities and condemning the whole lot is wrong and I can't help but think that God is grieved. I pray for you, Sir.

I am assuming you have read a few of my posts. I try and give an explanation for each position I take. It is not purely emotional. However, my passion for each subject probably screams out at times. My main position concerning the modern church and its leadership is that it has failed, and it is time for a change. If that is disturbing to you, I am sorry.



I think having a healthy debate is in order. I don't believe we should be following the church leadership blindly just because they see themselves as being spiritually superior to everyone else. Elitism is rampant, from the Vatican all the way down to the country church that serves only 30 people. The disciples of Christ need to take their churches back. I am prayerful we will one day accomplish that.



I am not the only one. There are many people in the U.S. that are no longer willing to "play church" anymore. And it's not because we are all"lost." It's because we want the same thing Jesus does: He wants his church back.



I agree 100%, and I would never ask anyone to stop gathering together. All I want my fellow believers to do is take responsibility and think for themselves. For example, what's better, having 95% of your tithe go to buildings and staff salaries, or to a single mom who decided to keep her baby instead of aborting it? We as Christians stand up and shake our firsts at those who abort their babies, yet how many churches do you know open their doors to these single moms? The answer is none because the pastor is too worried that the kid is going to spit-up on his new carpet.



No, It is the whole system of "church" in the western world that is out of line. It has been that way for 1700 years. It's time to go back to what Jesus envisioned, without all the buildings, Ph.D.'s, expensive programs and hierarchy.



It is time to make sweeping generalities. The numbers leaving the church as we know it is alarming, and it is not for the reasons that most pastors give. We are not all "derelicts." Societies all over the world are moving away from institutionalism. And that is a very good thing when it comes to the Church our Lord envisioned. God bless you, and I will pray for you also.

It happens every third Sunday. Most pastors in the U.S. will get behind the podium, shaking their fists, railing against the forces behind socialism in America. They lament about the demise of our society and how the Democrats are ruining the American way of life. The candidates for president are all socialists, and socialism, they say, leads to communism, and communism will destroy our country!

Communism defined

Communism: (from Latin communis, "common, universal") is a philosophical, social, political and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of a communist society, namely a socioeconomic order structured upon the ideas of common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money and the state. -- Wikipedia

Was the early church made up of communists?

The early church can be thought of as communistic in its purest form:

And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved. Acts 2: 42-47

Much different than Marxism

The manner in which these early Christians lived was far removed from Marxist ideology. However, the basic tenants of communism are the same:

• They lived in close proximity to one another.
• They gave freely of their time and possessions so that no one would go without the basic necessities of life.
• They ate together, prayed together, and there was a real sense of community.

The difference between this and the Marxist ideal is that there was no government mandate. These early believers gave of themselves, without the need for bureaucratic coercion. They were a benevolent society, much like the churches in America used to be; the churches that have recently succumbed to corporate capitalism.


Is capitalism evil?

A capitalist system has proven very useful to the growth and overall well-being of any country that adopts it. It has proven far superior to any socialist/ communist scheme that has ever been tried in the past. A free-market economy will always work better. However, capitalism should never be part of the underlying structure of any church organization. It should remain a tight-knit, benevolent society of believers who share each other's burdens.

Why are churches in the U.S. no longer benevolent?

There are two parts to most church budgets: the mortgage payment and staff compensation ( salaries, housing allowance, and health care benefits). These two major items usually consume at least 85% of what the church brings in through tithes and offerings. 5% goes to maintain the building. Another 5% goes to marketing (most churches don't like to call it that, but in reality, that is what it is). The amount remaining, about 5%, is usually divided between mission work and a paultry "benevolent fund."

With churches in the U.S. so strapped for cash, it is no wonder they have trouble serving their communities. There is not much room in the budget to open a food pantry. Single parents now look to the government for help in raising their children instead of their churches. Alcoholics and drug addicts find support through city and county programs. These struggling victims of Satan's attacks know better than to ask a pastor at a local church. They have experienced a cold shoulder one-too-many times!

What is the solution?

Here are a few suggestions for the followers of Christ to serve their communities rather than rely solely on the government:

1. Sell your church building and give the money to the poor
2. Take the money you usually tithe to the church and give it to someone who actually needs it
3. There are 168 hours in a week. Most churches utilize their building for only a few hours a week. Make it a goal to open it to the public at least three times what you do now.
4. Rent the church building out to other organizations during the week. Use the proceeds to pay down the mortgage in half the time.
5. Turn your church building into a homeless shelter.
6. Go back to having fund-raisers instead of asking each member of the church to put the financial well being of their families at risk.

By merely suggesting these solutions to the church hierarchy, a lowly parishioner may be chastised. However, it is essential to remember that if the church does not get involved with the local community, the government is all-too-willing, at great cost to the American taxpayer!

Most of the unchurched’s departure was not influenced by negative events or hurts they’ve experienced through others. Or an erosion of faith. They simply view the system as it stands as incompatible with their faith and principles. Some are opting for house churches or informal gatherings in their place. Others are secular or prefer spirituality over religion.

Barna produced an insightful article addressing the issue.

Instead, we could be doing this:

1. Tell one person about Jesus and what he has done for us.
2. Train up that person to be a disciple of Christ
3. Repeat

Now we have two or three gathered in His name. How wonderful is that? And to think we did it without expensive buildings, high paid pastors, and massive budgets!

There needs to be a distinction between a benevolent society like the one displayed by the early church and Marxism, which is what you are so adamant about.

But herein lies the problem. Pastors and other church leaders are so afraid of communism that it has clouded their judgment. For example, they often say to themselves, if not to their congregations:

"If we give our money to the poor, we may be labeled communists. We certainly don't want to go against the conservatives, since most of our big donors are aligned with that group."

"If we start giving stuff away, here comes a bunch of other free-loaders on the gravy train."

"My time is valuable. I spent a lot of money going to school. Why should I spend time counseling someone when they are just going to fall back into their own trap."

" This is something the socialist Democrats do."

And on and on it goes... Our church leaders are so afraid of the right-wing of the Republican party, they have forgotten why they are in business-- to serve. Jesus didn't go into the ministry with the idea of erecting a building, throwing 100 people in it, having a sermon every week, and then spending the other 164 hours that week preparing for "another awesome sermon."

Instead, Jesus did this:

He preached Matt. 5

He healed the sick Matt 8.

He trained His disciples Matt 10.

He taught Matt. 13.

He evangelized John 4.

He fed 5,000 people John 6

He washed the disciple's feet John 13.

He did all this without a building, a group of elders, a music band complete with stages and lights, a college degree, a new house, or a new car. He had nothing:

Now when Jesus saw a crowd around him, he gave orders to go over to the other side. And a scribe came up and said to him, "Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go." And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head." Matt. 8: 18-20


I wonder if Franklin Graham would be willing to give up his $30 million net worth to follow the same example.

I’ve been feeling a desire to host gatherings with groups of friends and unsaved people for lunch or dinner in my home. Where conversation, laughter and sharing will cultivate genuine fellowship. I love to entertain.

For me, the draw is mutual investment. The encouragement and support are forthcoming and never forced. You want to help, serve, and love one another. And we’d take turns hosting and sharing life over tasty meals or outings instead. That’s the direction I‘m moving towards.

Many churches arem actually community churches thats how many are run in nz. The congregationalists were a denom that everything was run by everybody there wasnt just one person doing everything like a pyramid scheme like you have in other churches that are run as corporations with just a couple of people at the 'top'

The early church can be thought of as communistic in its purest form:

Ive organised bible gatherings in public places, workplaces have them at lunchtimes, in libraries...taught in schools

Again the early church was not practicing communism by any stretch of the imagination.

Yup Graham has made lots of money... Christian's are duped everyday.

I’ve been feeling a desire to host gatherings with groups of friends and unsaved people for lunch or dinner in my home. Where conversation, laughter and sharing will cultivate genuine fellowship. I love to entertain.

We have been doing that for over 20 years. The house we have can easily handle 50 or 60 people. Up to 100 if they go outside during the summer. This was actually designed by an architect and there are quite a few conversation areas where groups of people can gather together to talk with each other. Sometimes we will pick someone out and give them or their kids special treatment if they have been going through a difficult time in their life.

It can be a lot of work to organize these events but it is a lot of fun. Sort of like a potluck dinner at church. I know churches that have events like that at least once a month. This is a time for fellowship and for people getting to know each other.