If the Church Won't, the Government Will

[seoulsearch]

yup

people like to idealize the NT church and somehow overlook how much of the NT was written to correct error or give instruction so things would be done properly

nothing has changed, but too many think they could do a better job but if given the chance, they would soon find out it is not easy and in fact, it is difficult

Around Christmastime, some of my family members donated part of their support to Mr. and Mrs. Smith for their worthy charitable cause. They also donated to Mr. and Mrs. Jones for their worthy charitable cause as well. Each donation was meant to be kept strictly confidential between the givers and the recipients.

Somehow Mr. and Mrs. Smith found out that Mr. and Mrs. Jones had also received a donation, then actually had the gall to contact my family members and tell them that Mr. and Mrs. Jones' worthy cause was much less worthy than their (Mr. and Mrs. Smiths') worthy cause, and that ALL of the available donations should have been given to them instead.

I absolutely detest this kind of riff raff, so when I am able to make donations, I do so to my home church's or old adoption agency's "Where Most Needed Fund."

I just trust that they are prayed up as to whom the Lord is directing the resources to go to (if not, that's between them and the Lord to correct), and I can stay somewhat anonymous and safely away from the 3-ring circus that always occurs when money/resources are involved.

This sometimes backfires as well, seeing as I will sometimes then be solicited for more or bigger donations from the organizations, but until I can find a better solution, seems to be a viable option for me (though of course, I realize and support the fact that we are all called to different things and to work in different ways as the Lord sees fit.)

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Around Christmastime, some of my family members donated part of their support to Mr. and Mrs. Smith for their worthy charitable cause. They also donated to Mr. and Mrs. Jones for their worthy charitable cause as well. Each donation was meant to be kept strictly confidential between the givers and the recipients.

Somehow Mr. and Mrs. Smith found out that Mr. and Mrs. Jones had also received a donation, then actually had the gall to contact my family members and tell them that Mr. and Mrs. Jones' worthy cause was much less worthy than their (Mr. and Mrs. Smiths') worthy cause, and that ALL of the available donations should have been given to them instead.

I absolutely detest this kind of riff raff, so when I am able to make donations, I do so to my home church's or old adoption agency's "Where Most Needed Fund."

I just trust that they are prayed up as to whom the Lord is directing the resources to go to (if not, that's between them and the Lord to correct), and I can stay somewhat anonymous and safely away from the 3-ring circus that always occurs when money/resources are involved.

This sometimes backfires as well, seeing as I will sometimes then be solicited for more or bigger donations from the organizations, but until I can find a better solution, seems to be a viable option for me (though of course, I realize and support the fact that we are all called to different things and to work in different ways as the Lord sees fit.)

that sounds painful and very shallow. I'm sorry that went down....I mean what do you even say to people who think that way? I hesitate to give at times cause I am not sure what the money will be used for

we do give to an organization that transports and gives out Bibles in countries where Bibles are prohibited and consequently a precious possession to those who receive one. frankly, I don't even use offering envelopes in church...I once gave a pretty good donation for a building fund and the pastor actually called me out during his sermon and started talking to me like I was a pillar of the church or something. I was startled and thought 'so now I am special cause I gave a few extra cents'. anyway, that was years back and elsewhere in time...church does not even exist anymore and the whole building thing went bye bye

so now I am a 'cash only' person...no more cheques

I also do not care for the 'give 10% ' pressure tactics on a Sunday morning.

and yes, we are called to different things and should be good managers with what we have been given

 

[seoulsearch]

that sounds painful and very shallow. I'm sorry that went down....I mean what do you even say to people who think that way? I hesitate to give at times cause I am not sure what the money will be used for

we do give to an organization that transports and gives out Bibles in countries where Bibles are prohibited and consequently a precious possession to those who receive one. frankly, I don't even use offering envelopes in church...I once gave a pretty good donation for a building fund and the pastor actually called me out during his sermon and started talking to me like I was a pillar of the church or something. I was startled and thought 'so now I am special cause I gave a few extra cents'. anyway, that was years back and elsewhere in time...church does not even exist anymore and the whole building thing went bye bye

so now I am a 'cash only' person...no more cheques

I also do not care for the 'give 10% ' pressure tactics on a Sunday morning.

and yes, we are called to different things and should be good managers with what we have been given

Unfortunately, it's really a sign of the times that in order to try to live out our faith as Christians, we also have to equally prepared to take any means necessary to defend ourselves when needed (such as with your example of cash-only donations.)

I understand the OP's frustration with churches constantly asking for money to expand what might seem to be their own personal interests, but for some people, a church is the best way for them to help and to serve.

As a long-term single who has had varied living situations over the years, I am much more comfortable going to a church or public building to serve and worship than I am in any home setting. I know that some people might think I'm paranoid, but growing in the church has taught me a lot about what can go wrong, even when people have nothing but good intentions.

All it takes is one accusation to fly in either direction, and you could end up in fiasco that could have been avoided by meeting regularly in a public place. I'm certainly not trying to say that this is a perfect solution, but I know I feel safer going to a public building rather than someone's home.

A recent church I attended talked about a member who is currently trying to stay clean and sober, but the process has taken several years and during that time, that person would regularly show up at the while they were high because they had nowhere else to go. I worked in an area for a couple of years where it was almost more normal to be on drugs than not, so I did not feel comfortable at all inviting anyone over to my home. However, I would invite them to church.

How many people (and their families and young children) are prepared to deal with people who show up on their doorstep while actively participating in their addictions?

I also had a Christian friend a few years ago who invited some people to stay with them and discovered they were shooting up heroin in the bathroom. Fortunately, two men in the household were registered gun owner, and they were able to ask these guests to leave on their own without incident. In my home state, I was told there was a law that once you invite someone into your home, they have a legal right to stay (whether the invitation was spoken or written), and if they will not leave on their own, you will have to go through the legal process in order to get them evicted. I'm not sure of the details of this law or whether it's still in effect, but it is definitely something I would thoroughly investigate before ever inviting someone to stay with me ever again (in the past, I had invited female co-workers to stay at my place when they were going through hard times.)

I feel fortunate that God made me aware of these kinds of risks so that I can make better decisions before I encountered such issues.

I think it's very important to realize that along with inviting people into your home, you are also allowing the things they are struggling with into your home and life as well. Few people are qualified to deal with many of the issues so many people are trying to overcome today (drugs and alcohol, sexual abuse and pornography, etc.)

I am certainly not saying that the church has all the answers or makes all the right decisions, but neither does anyone else, and as a single woman who feels a need to protect her privacy and that of any roommates I might have, my local (fiscally responsible) church is the safest, most practical way for me to serve both God and others.

 

[DesertWanderer]

So you're saying you're against a pastor having a salary ?!

It depends on what you mean by "salary." If you mean having the pastor make double what the average person in the congregation makes, then no. If on top of his monthly salary he gets to live in a nice house and not have to pay rent or mortgage payments, then no. If on top of his monthly salary and housing allowance, he gets a free membership to the country club, a free cell phone, free travel voucher for anywhere in the country and a free Sam's membership, then no.

Unfortunately, most people who attend church in the U.S. are not going to know what their pastor actually gets for salary, housing, and perks. These items are usually lumped into "administrative costs.' If you are daring enough to inquire about compensation for your pastor and other staff members, you are usually met with, "Don't worry, we'll make sure he's blessed," or worse yet, "It really is none of your business."

Due to loopholes in the U.S. tax code, churches do not have to disclose compensation, salaries and fringe benefits like their secular non-profit counterparts. They can make public as much or as little as they want; usually very little.


It is an interesting paradox: Most small churches will disclose all relevant income and expense data, including pastor salaries, whereas most large churches won't. This is probably because most churches with a budget in the millions use a disproportionate amount to keep the paid staff happy.

 

[SpoonJuly]

You hear it in the sermons. Pastors literally discourage giving to the poor, because "these low-lifes did it to themselves." Instead, we are encouraged to give to a bloated building fund.



I know what Jesus gave-- everything. And he didn't have a $30 million net worth.

You need to turn your TV off and stop watching these con men.
Just how many local churches have you visited?
To judge all churches based on what these TV con men say and how they live is wrong.

 

[SpoonJuly]

It depends on what you mean by "salary." If you mean having the pastor make double what the average person in the congregation makes, then no. If on top of his monthly salary he gets to live in a nice house and not have to pay rent or mortgage payments, then no. If on top of his monthly salary and housing allowance, he gets a free membership to the country club, a free cell phone, free travel voucher for anywhere in the country and a free Sam's membership, then no.

Unfortunately, most people who attend church in the U.S. are not going to know what their pastor actually gets for salary, housing, and perks. These items are usually lumped into "administrative costs.' If you are daring enough to inquire about compensation for your pastor and other staff members, you are usually met with, "Don't worry, we'll make sure he's blessed," or worse yet, "It really is none of your business."

Due to loopholes in the U.S. tax code, churches do not have to disclose compensation, salaries and fringe benefits like their secular non-profit counterparts. They can make public as much or as little as they want; usually very little.


It is an interesting paradox: Most small churches will disclose all relevant income and expense data, including pastor salaries, whereas most large churches won't. This is probably because most churches with a budget in the millions use a disproportionate amount to keep the paid staff happy.

And you know these statements are right because you have visited ALL of the churches.

 

[DesertWanderer]

You need to turn your TV off and stop watching these con men.
Just how many local churches have you visited?
To judge all churches based on what these TV con men say and how they live is wrong.

I think what is upsetting most on this forum about my posts is that I am talking about the local, mainstream church. I am not talking about the televangelists at all. And I am certainly not singling out mega-churches.

It may be time to change up the way we have been playing "church" for the last 1700 years. That is all I am saying.

 

[bojack]

I think what is upsetting most on this forum about my posts is that I am talking about the local, mainstream church. I am not talking about the televangelists at all. And I am certainly not singling out mega-churches.

It may be time to change up the way we have been playing "church" for the last 1700 years. That is all I am saying.

Are you glad there are churches that anyone can find the address and directions to and that they faithfully open their doors a couple times every week ..
Why do you concern yourself with what another man makes .. Isn't there plenty of ministry to do before harping on churches, their faithful and their preacher's, wives and families .. jus sayin

 

[DesertWanderer]

And you know these statements are right because you have visited ALL of the churches.

I have been involved in a lot of churches in my 56 years. Beyond that, there are disturbing trends being reported.

The following video does report primarily on mega-churches. However, it doesn't matter the size of the church. Just because you have the money in the budget doesn't mean it has to all go to the pastor.

This next Youtube video is disturbing. I have reservations linking it since there is some foul language. But it does show the thinking of some of the younger non-believers. Basically, the church, in general, has lost all credibility with this group, and that is very sad.

 

[kaylagrl]

It depends on what you mean by "salary." If you mean having the pastor make double what the average person in the congregation makes, then no. If on top of his monthly salary he gets to live in a nice house and not have to pay rent or mortgage payments, then no. If on top of his monthly salary and housing allowance, he gets a free membership to the country club, a free cell phone, free travel voucher for anywhere in the country and a free Sam's membership, then no.

Are talking about tv evangelists? Here is what an average pastor gets paid by state. Does that seem like a lot to you?



https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/What-Is-the-Average-Pastor-Salary-by-State

Unfortunately, most people who attend church in the U.S. are not going to know what their pastor actually gets for salary, housing, and perks. These items are usually lumped into "administrative costs.' If you are daring enough to inquire about compensation for your pastor and other staff members, you are usually met with, "Don't worry, we'll make sure he's blessed," or worse yet, "It really is none of your business."

I know exactly what my pastor makes, he doesn't hide it. And if you're a member of the church you have the right to know. If they refuse, find another church. I've never attended a church where the pastor refused to reveal his salary. And yes, the pastor should be blessed.

Due to loopholes in the U.S. tax code, churches do not have to disclose compensation, salaries and fringe benefits like their secular non-profit counterparts. They can make public as much or as little as they want; usually very little.


It is an interesting paradox: Most small churches will disclose all relevant income and expense data, including pastor salaries, whereas most large churches won't. This is probably because most churches with a budget in the millions use a disproportionate amount to keep the paid staff happy.

 

[DesertWanderer]

Are you glad there are churches that anyone can find the address and directions to and that they faithfully open their doors a couple times every week ..
Why do you concern yourself with what another man makes .. Isn't there plenty of ministry to do before harping on churches, their faithful and their preacher's, wives and families .. jus sayin

I get what you are saying. But most people are being duped into thinking there is only one way:

1. Get up on Sunday morning and get dressed up, if only a little bit
2. Drive to the church
3. Drop the kids off at "kids church," separating them from their families yet another hour from the previous week.
4. Sing songs and worship (best part, no doubt), except when the pastor decides he's just too good to get his hands out of his pockets and worship with you
5. Listen to one guy talk for 45 minutes; the same guy that talked for 45 minutes last week
6. Drop off a check for ten percent of what you make, not really knowing how it will be spent
7. Wave to everyone in your clique as you make a mad dash out the door
8. Repeat next week

I think there is a better way:

1. Tell one person how Jesus has changed your life
2. Train up that person to be His disciple
3. Repeat

That can be done without expensive buildings, paid staff and bloated budgets. It's simple really. Either we make disciples, or the government will.

Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age." Matt. 28: 16-20

 

[DesertWanderer]

Are talking about tv evangelists? Here is what an average pastor gets paid by state. Does that seem like a lot to you?

You're using ZipRecruiter, seriously? Let's say they are right. What they haven't figured in is housing allowance and other perks, which are oftentimes not disclosed. That said, there are a lot of bi-vocational pastors who get even less than average. That begs the question, why bother with salaried pastors at all? Why are we making it a profession in the first place? There is a simpler way, and I don't mind saying it over and over again:

1. Tell one person how Jesus has changed your life
2. Train up that person to be His disciple
3. Repeat

That can be done without expensive buildings, paid staff and bloated budgets. It's simple really. Either we make disciples, or the government will.

Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age." Matt. 28: 16-20

 

[kaylagrl]

You're using ZipRecruiter, seriously?

The point was the average salary of a pastor isn't any different than the majority of the people in the pew.

Let's say they are right. What they haven't figured in is housing allowance and other perks, which are oftentimes not disclosed. That said, there are a lot of bi-vocational pastors who get even less than average. That begs the question, why bother with salaried pastors at all? Why are we making it a profession in the first place? There is a simpler way, and I don't mind saying it over and over again:

1. Tell one person how Jesus has changed your life
2. Train up that person to be His disciple
3. Repeat

That can be done without expensive buildings, paid staff and bloated budgets. It's simple really. Either we make disciples, or the government will.

What about fellowship with other Christians to help that person grow? Who "trains" that person? We have a person here among us that denies the deity of Christ. Man, it's hard enough to get Christians up on Sunday morning and out to church let alone bring an unsaved friend.

Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age." Matt. 28: 16-20

 

[kaylagrl]

I have been involved in a lot of churches in my 56 years. Beyond that, there are disturbing trends being reported.

The following video does report primarily on mega-churches. However, it doesn't matter the size of the church. Just because you have the money in the budget doesn't mean it has to all go to the pastor.

This next Youtube video is disturbing. I have reservations linking it since there is some foul language. But it does show the thinking of some of the younger non-believers. Basically, the church, in general, has lost all credibility with this group, and that is very sad.

The Young Turks!!? You're using far left radical ideologues to judge the church!! Come on man. Give me a break. I have pastors in my family, I traveled in ministry 20 yrs., I have been in hundreds of churches, have endless pastors that are friends. And I don't take kindly to you bashing the church and pastors and making blanket statements and using far left radicals to do it. Unreal.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

There needs to be a distinction between a benevolent society like the one displayed by the early church and Marxism, which is what you are so adamant about.

But herein lies the problem. Pastors and other church leaders are so afraid of communism that it has clouded their judgment. For example, they often say to themselves, if not to their congregations:

"If we give our money to the poor, we may be labeled communists. We certainly don't want to go against the conservatives, since most of our big donors are aligned with that group."

"If we start giving stuff away, here comes a bunch of other free-loaders on the gravy train."

what utter rubbish

complete and truly rubbish

did you fall on your head as a baby?

you seem to have a very distinct and personal agenda that does not actually add up to anything more than

wait for it...

your agenda

it does not really fit the NT church operations either

if you are actually trying to suggest that that model was communist in comparison, and it seems you are, then you do not understand communism

having things in common with my husband, for example, does not make us communists

we would be communists though, if we reported each other to the bureaucrats and secret police and had each other hauled off into the night and sent into a gulag or work camp in order to be 'good citizens' of the regime

we would do that in order to get an extra bread coupon or maybe a few eggs

 

[7seasrekeyed]

The Young Turks!!? You're using far left radical ideologues to judge the church!! Come on man. Give me a break. I have pastors in my family, I traveled in ministry 20 yrs., I have been in hundreds of churches, have endless pastors that are friends. And I don't take kindly to you bashing the church and pastors and making blanket statements and using far left radicals to do it. Unreal.

no one is going to make sense with this dude

and he is pretty much just jerking everyone's chain

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I understand the OP's frustration with churches constantly asking for money to expand what might seem to be their own personal interests, but for some people, a church is the best way for them to help and to serve.

I don't care for the money agenda either but his thinking is way out there IMO and I think he is having fun with us
which he will deny of course

As a long-term single who has had varied living situations over the years, I am much more comfortable going to a church or public building to serve and worship than I am in any home setting. I know that some people might think I'm paranoid, but growing in the church has taught me a lot about what can go wrong, even when people have nothing but good intentions.

I have a very different experience...Canada has such smaller populations and I have very much enjoyed home meetings (mind you I live in the US now)...but what is more like cell groups that are formed in church and then meet during the week. having been in leadership in a number of churches, I know more than I wanna know LOL!...it's often enough 'uh...hello Christians? can we please act like Christians?'

[QUOTE="]How many people (and their families and young children) are prepared to deal with people who show up on their doorstep while actively participating in their addictions?[/QUOTE]

I would not let those folks near children. ever

I also had a Christian friend a few years ago who invited some people to stay with them and discovered they were shooting up heroin in the bathroom. Fortunately, two men in the household were registered gun owner, and they were able to ask these guests to leave on their own without incident. In my home state, I was told there was a law that once you invite someone into your home, they have a legal right to stay (whether the invitation was spoken or written), and if they will not leave on their own, you will have to go through the legal process in order to get them evicted. I'm not sure of the details of this law or whether it's still in effect, but it is definitely something I would thoroughly investigate before ever inviting someone to stay with me ever again (in the past, I had invited female co-workers to stay at my place when they were going through hard times.)

IMO, my home is my last stand away from the world. I don't have experience dealing with folks with physical addictions or illness...I have dealt mainly with spiritual issues, in biblical counselling. but of course there are connections there for sure anyway. I have not heard of such a law as you mention, but maybe that applies only if you have some sort of contract? dunno....anyway, like I said, not in my house. I could not be 'turned on to help' 24/7 anyway as I imagine you would have to be with strangers in your home that you are trying to help. if people are not addiction counselors or have some sort of formal training to deal with addicts, I don't think they should attempt to intervene ... way too much can happen as you say...I mean as Christians we are trying to be honest and truthful and folks in that condition are not ... in fact the opposite...so gullible well meaning people get sucked in and then get in trouble...as you say your friends did...but I am not calling your friends gullible etc

I guess some people might think I am hard hearted or something, but until you deal with people who need help that badly, I don't think you understand what is going on. I think Christians without experience might have a tendency to 'coddle' folks and that is not what they need....same thing applies spiritually actually. it can be very hard work to pull yourself out of destructive habits and change yourself. without something to believe in beyond yourself, I think the failure rate would be very high. people need support, but basically have to determine for themselves

I am more than willing to help, but I don't have time to be taken for a ride...frankly, I have had 'Christians' take me for a ride once too often so I am just very cautious...as it seems are you...I think that is ok

I think it's very important to realize that along with inviting people into your home, you are also allowing the things they are struggling with into your home and life as well. Few people are qualified to deal with many of the issues so many people are trying to overcome today (drugs and alcohol, sexual abuse and pornography, etc.)

exactly.

I am certainly not saying that the church has all the answers or makes all the right decisions, but neither does anyone else, and as a single woman who feels a need to protect her privacy and that of any roommates I might have, my local (fiscally responsible) church is the safest, most practical way for me to serve both God and others.

I have seen often enough where folks get to thinking that if they pray everything will be good. nope. you cannot force the will of others and people do have a free will. having basically grown up in church, I can attest to the fact that things have very much changed and sometimes I think about how things were when I was young...you just did not have all the things to deal with as we do today. but as you said in another post, God does lead us in what we should be doing. or words to that effect

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Are you glad there are churches that anyone can find the address and directions to and that they faithfully open their doors a couple times every week ..
Why do you concern yourself with what another man makes .. Isn't there plenty of ministry to do before harping on churches, their faithful and their preacher's, wives and families .. jus sayin

yup

he's got big ideas about how things should be

 

[kaylagrl]

yup

he's got big ideas about how things should be

Big ideas are great, if carried through. I wonder how much evangelizing our friend has done. How much he has given up for the Gospel. The comforts of home, a job, financial? What has he himself given up compared to evangelists and pastors? I just wonder.

 

[Runningman]

In a fallen world are we very surprised that the world falls even more? Can we do anything that amounts to anything more than a delay tactic or a stop gap for the inevitable end times? I am not saying lay down and stop spreading the truth, I am saying that we already have a glimpse at how far the world descends into chaos from the scripture.

"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be." Matthew 24:21