Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

Right, I was saying how "the wrath COMING [PRESENT participle]" in 1Th1:10 is speaking of something "yet future" to when written (my understanding is that it is "yet future" STILL, but that is beside the point under discussion ); and that 1Jn4:2-3's "having come [perfect participle] in flesh" is written distinctly from that of 2Jn2:7's "coming [present participle]" because they are distinct.



[Thessalonians two epistles covering the Subject of an "eschatological salvation" (/'deliverance'), using more than just this ONE word (here in 1:10) to describe it and speak of it, but at least (something like) TEN references to it, in these two epistles]

It is silly when someone takes a passage and explains in the passage what he thinks it means

and when someone else comes, ignores the passage, and just goes off totally ignoring the passage and just tells the guy he is wrong.

however it does do two things

it proves to the person who gave the verse he must be right, because the one goi g against him is to afraid to even mention the verse

no one else will listen to the person, I mean, if they can. To refute in the passage the opening view, then he probably does not know much else

so I guess in that view..keep it up.

Just a suggestion, don't develop or base your eschatological views on a participle.

I submit to you that there is just one divine judgment wrath mentioned in the NT and every time you see it, it dealt with the punishment of the Harlot, that being the adulterous Jerusalem and disbelieving surrounding cities.

EXHIBIT A: Mat 3: But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

EXHIBIT B: 1 THES 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

EXHIBIT C Rev 6: and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

EXHIBIT D Rev 14: And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

It is a city that is to face the wrath, not the whole planet!! Related to this divine wrath is the motivation for it - vengeance!! God and the Lamb are said to be taking vengeance. Let's see the passages:

EXHIBIT A Lk 21: For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

EXHIBIT B Rom 12:

Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

EXHIBIT C 2 Thes 1:

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

EXHIBIT D Heb 10: For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”

This is a binary choice. Was God angry at those who rejected and murdered His Son, who preferred Barabbas and proclaimed Caesar as their true King or is God more angry with some people thousands of years later who had nothing to do with it. The last exhibit is particularly powerful when the writer of Hebrews, writing to who???? Jews, says, "The Lord will judge His people."

Then there is Mat 10:

15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city! When they persecute you in this city, flee to another.... For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

These are the cities of Israel, not the whole world. Who was being persecuted?? Where did Vespasian begin his campaign? The cities of Galilee. He wiped them all out, those that revolted.

I agree with that, by the way, however that does not prove dispensationalism.

Amillennials can believe in the one battle of mankind at the return of Jesus, because it is biblical.

Dispensationalism is NOT.

I can see why some believe in preterism, because Revelation was largely about the continuing persecution of God's people by the forces of evil, manifested in the angelic, human goverment, and individual human leve. Some events described are parallel to events that occurred in the first century church, because they were used as types of this ongoing struggle. They had already been accomplished by John's time, though.

For a short while, I bought into this preterist idea because the parallels with historical events are evident. However, just like much of Revelation, the fulfilled events were typological of events to occur. For instance, historic enemies of God are used as types....Babylon isn't literal Babylon, but is talking about enslavement to this world's system.

I'm not sure if dispensationalists can reason like this, though..it blows their literalistic methodology out of the water

I suggest folks read the shorter commentary on Revelation by GK Beale in this regard.

This is a quote from Identifying the Seed, by Rob McKenzie:

The restarting of the clock for Israel is not just a metaphorical time piece. Dispensationalism looks to Daniel 9:24-27 where Daniel is told that there would be 70 weeks that would occur in world history. At the end of these weeks, the Kingdom of the Messiah would come. The weeks spoken of in Daniel 9 are actually symbolic, metaphorically meaning years. Both Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology agree, one week equals seven years, so seventy weeks equals 490 years. The prophecy started when the Jewish captives in exile were allowed to return to Jerusalem and the years end 490 years later, sometime during the first advent of Christ. While both
sides agree on the general time when these years begin, it is how they believe the prophecy ended where the two systems disagree. Dispensationalism teaches that when Israel rejected the Messiah that that was at the end of the 69th week. There was still one seven-year period left. If the people had accepted the Messiah, then Jesus would have set up His Kingdom seven years later. Because this prophecy was made to the nation of Israel, the fulfillment of that prophecy must happen in the nation of Israel. For Dispensationalism, the seven-year tribulation period is the 70th week of Daniel, as The Bible Knowledge Commentary tells us in its note on Daniel 9:27a: This verse unveils what will occur in the 70th seven years.

This seven-year period will begin after the Rapture of the church (which will consummate God’s program in this present Age). The 70th ‘seven’ will continue till the return of Jesus Christ to the earth. Because Jesus said this will be a time of ‘great distress’ (Matt. 24:21), this period is often called the Tribulation.[111] One objection Reformed Theology has to this interpretation is based upon Dispensationalism’s own hermeneutic. Daniel 9:24-27 does not tell us of any gap that takes place between the 69th and 70th week. The passage breaks up the 70 weeks into three parts: seven, sixty-two, and one. All agree that there is no gap in the passage between seven and sixty-two, but it is Dispensationalism that inserts a gap between the 69th week and the 70th.

If Dispensationalism is to be consistent with its own hermeneutic, there should not be any gap in the interpretation since there is no gap in the passage. However, Reformed Theology also has a problem interpreting this passage. They teach that the years end in the middle of the 70th week at Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. When Christ is raised in the resurrection, the final three and a half years becomes the eternal state, or, as Hebrews says, the eternal rest of God. The problem for Reformed Theology (at least those who admit that this is a problem), is that the text that has been literally fulfilled up to that point has little evidence for this type of interpretation. Both systems have significant problems with their interpretation of this passage, and our time here does not
permit a full examination. Suffice it to say that the proof regarding each system as a whole will need to be found elsewhere in Scripture. The Bible teaches that there is a man coming in the future who is referred to as the Antichrist or the man of sin, and to this both sides agree. Reformed Theology understands that this future Antichrist is the final culmination of many antichrists that have been in the world since the time of the apostles. In John’s first epistle, he wrote, “Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.” (I John 2:18) Dispensationalism would agree that there have been many types of antichrists in the past, although
their system emphasizes the coming future Antichrist to the exclusion to all others. The Tribulation begins when this Antichrist, as a political leader, makes a treaty with Israel for seven years (i.e. Daniel’s 70th week). The Church has been raptured and is no longer on Earth; the presence of the Church has had a positive influence on the world. This was because the members of the Church were indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit was actively working in the world seeking to bring people to Christ as well as restraining sin. The influence of evil upon the people of this world had been restrained. With the removal of the Church and the Holy Spirit’s influence, the restraint of sin was taken away. This is part of the judgment that is brought about because of man’s failure
to keep the dispensation’s rules by repenting of his sin and believing in Jesus. The idea that the Holy Spirit will be taken away from the world will horrify Covenant people, but Dispensationalists do not believe that the Holy Spirit will have no activity at all during this time period. They believe that the Holy Spirit will revert back to the scale of activities that He had in the Old Testament before Pentecost. Ryrie tells us this in his book on the Holy Spirit, “However, such removal does not mean or even imply that the work of the Spirit comes to an end. Just as the omnipresent Spirit worked on behalf of people in Old Testament times, so He will continue to work after the Rapture of the church, even though His work of building
the body of Christ will be finished.”[112]

[Continued from above]

Ryrie goes on to list this activity. The Holy Spirit will still be involved in salvation and regeneration, the sealing of the 144,000 Jewish missionaries, and the empowering of the two witnesses. He will also indwell and empower believers. However, the Holy Spirit will not restrain sin; God will give mankind over to all its evil desires. The revealing of the Antichrist to the world is something that holds the attention of many in Dispensationalism. There are always new and fascinating guesses about who the Antichrist will be. Opinion is divided in the Dispensational system whether he will be a Jew or a Gentile, whether he will be revealed just before the Rapture or just after, and if he will be someone in power already of if he will come to power at the start of the tribulation period. The anticipation of this time is the reason why Dispensationalists produce so many books and movies on this subject because if they guess correctly they will know that they are about to be raptured up to Heaven. Whenever something momentous happens in this world, like the attack on the World Trade Center or Russia invading Ukraine, Dispensationalists will always wonder if this is the final push to the rise of the Antichrist and the Rapture. Pointing to Daniel 2 and 7 as well as Revelation 13 and 17, Dispensationalism believes that there will be a confederation of ten nations, all of which had been part of the old Roman empire, who will band together to form a one-world government. At some point, there will be
war made upon Israel either just before or just after the Rapture (Ezekiel 38-39). Ezekiel 38 talks about Gog and Magog who Dispensationalists believe are Russia and Iran respectively. With the help of God, Israel will be able to defeat the invaders. The newly-risen-to-power Antichrist will have helped and defended Israel making a treaty with them for seven years. Because this is done at the beginning of the tribulation period, Dispensationalists are always on the lookout for signs that these events are about to occur. So, if Russia sends troops to Iran in the dead of night and it makes the news, then for Dispensationalists this could be the beginning of the tribulation period and the Rapture could be just about to happen. If a political leader were to mention making a treaty with Israel, then Dispensationalists’ ears perk up—and so on. With the Church removed from the Earth and the Spirit of God no longer restraining sin, the people of the world will be left to follow their evil desires. God will pour out His wrath in judgment—both for the world because of their failure in the dispensation as well as on unbelieving Israel to bring them back from exile. This is the time of Jacob’s trouble spoken of in Jeremiah 30. At the beginning of the seven years, God will set aside and seal for Himself 144,000 male Jewish virgins who will be empowered with incredible evangelistic ability (Revelation 7). They will go throughout the world preaching the Gospel and will both endure persecution as well as make converts for Christ. God will also send back to Earth

Moses and Elijah (although some would say Elijah and Enoch). These are the two witnesses of Revelation 11. They will perform signs and wonders and be powerful evangelistic witnesses. The unbelievers of this world will hate these witnesses and seek to kill them, but the two witnesses will have power to do miracles such as shutting up the sky to withhold rain. They will also have the power to kill all who seek to do them harm. As time goes by in the Tribulation, the persecution from the unbelieving world against all Christians will only increase as will the hatred of these two witnesses. Someone who is Reformed may be wondering what happens to the Church at this time. Dispensationalism teaches that the Church is taken up to Heaven where
each individual member stands before the Bema Seat, to be judged by Christ for every thought, word, and deed. [113] This judgment is not for their salvation but for their rewards that they earned or failed to earn in their service for Christ on Earth as Christians. Some will be rewarded greatly; others will have no rewards and will weep at their failures. (These are the carnal Christians.) They will then participate in the marriage supper of the Lamb. With the Church watching, Jesus will be handed a scroll with seven seals. No one but Christ is found to be worthy to open the scroll. This is the scroll of judgment, and Jesus, through His finished work on the cross, has earned the right to bring righteous judgment upon the Earth. This scroll is a literal scroll with seven literal seals.
For Dispensationalism, the prophecies contained in the scroll and the judgments that come from the breaking of the seals are the foretelling of specific, future, literal events. They are not, as the Reformed would contend, apocalyptic figurative language to depict spiritual truth that will take place between the advents of Christ. So for Dispensationalism, the four horses of the apocalypse are literally four horses with four literal riders that are sent forth out of Heaven literally to judge the Earth with the specific literal judgments described.[114]

McKenzie, Robert. Identifying the Seed: An Examination and Evaluation of the Differences between Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology . UNKNOWN. Kindle Edition.

Anyways, I suggest you get the book if you want to know what dispies teach, from a former dispensationalist who has listened to hundreds of messages, and read dozens of books on both sides.

Regarding the seventieth week, my position would be that it is related to Christ's ministry plus the ministry of the Church, culminating in the return of Jesus. 42 months (1260 days or 3 1/2 years) relate to Jesus' ministry, and 42 months relate to the Church's ministry, of which Jesus' ministry is a type.

Is my position certain? NO.

Is the dispie position certain? NO. And I don't even think it is probable. It is obvious Revelation uses numbers in a symbolic fashion, and dispensationalists will firmly resist this, because it does not fit with their narrative.

And, somehow they continue to produce tons and tons of speculative prophesy books. Some strongly suggest certain dates and events and persons involved in end time scenarios, but when their claims don't materialize, dispies suffer memory loss and forget about the fact that someone prophesied falsely.

That's exactly what I did as a cultist, concerning the failed prophesies of the cult's leader.

McKenzie, Robert. Identifying the Seed: An Examination and Evaluation of the Differences between Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology . UNKNOWN. Kindle Edition.

By the way, if anyone has issues with me quoting McKenzie, I will say that your positions are based on various experts in your perspective, too, unless you are a whacky outlyer who may have came up with some novel claims.

Notice that I don't have to propose some gap between the 69th and 70th week.

If the 70th week is 42 months of Jesus' ministry (and many consider this to be the length of his public ministry) and a symbolic period of 42 months of his Church's ministry (which is basically Jesus' ministry through the mediation of the Holy Spirit) everything aligns perfectly and extends from Jesus' ascension to his return.

This time period is used throughout Revelation and/or Daniel...either in the form of 42 months, 1260 days, and a time, times and half a time.

If I'm a dispensationalist, though, I will refuse to see this possibility and will revert to literalism, in other words reading everything in a wooden, literal sense, except when it doesn't conflict with Dispensationalism. Then I can pull it out of my bag of tricks and patch my theology up.

You just spent three posts proving nothing

you did not respond properly to what I said.

either way

daniels 69th week ends exactly on the time jesus entered jerusalem as prophesied, he was killed 7 days later, as prophesied

the next even occurs some 40 years later

amil,post mil preterists or whatever can not explain why this is so in a way that matches historical records and the Bible.

until they do, I can not believe in anything which supports them in their view on this passage

How would that apply to the word thousans years in the parable found in Revelation 20? literal or signified?

We share something in common then..I don't believe dispensational drivel

When I compare the two camps, I see a bunch of nutty people who are focused on end-time events in one, and sane people who are focused on meaty subjects like core Christian teachings in the other.

It's a no brainer for me.

Especially since I know that a large number of them deny that the New Covenant is for the Church, and they don't understand doctrines like union with Christ.

I wouldn't call Revelation 20 a parable.

However, Revelation 20 covers the church age, if you want to call it that. So, it would cover the last 3 1/2 days of the 70th week.

That's how I would view it, and it's as good as any dispensationalist interpretation. They can claim their hermeneutical superiority all they want. The emperor has no clothes.

The wizard of Oz is just a man behind a curtain

By the way, I attended dispensationalist churches for a number of years. The main one was Calvary Chapel. I learned virtually nothing there, on prophecy or any other topic. I don't think that they are capable of seeing the grand metanarrative of Scripture, because their "biblical theology" is so disjointed. Their free-willer position doesn't help that situation any, either.

One might ask, if I learned nothing, why did I stay there? I had come out of a cult and I didn't realize that sounder theologies existed. I was trying to figure things out. I happened to meet some Reformed people online and they helped me understand the Bible better.

If anyone wants a book that will cover the overarching story of Scripture (Creation, Fall, Rescue (Jesus), Restoration), I would recommend Welcome to the Story by Stephen Nichols. It's a nice simple volume and a good starting place.

Regarding Daniel 9:24-27, this guy explains the claims of dispensationalism concerning these Scriptures very well.

He provides an amillennial response to them.

The big issue that they have is their claim that there is a 2000 year gap between v.26 and v.27.

But they have absolutely no basis for their claim. According to their own hermeneutic, they should admit that they are working on unscriptural hermeneutical principles while making their claim.

They believe the prophetic time-clock stopped approximately after the destruction of the Temple in AD70, and will begin again seven years prior to Jesus' return, when the rapture occurs. But, they have no basis for this claim.

Here's the video:

If it did offer amillennial response it would of included no literal thousands years ending on the last day Christ coming as a thief in the night .

The commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah would be to restore the government of God as it was during the period of Judges. When men walked by faith .The time of reformation has come. signaled by it is finished the graves were opened. Its what reformation do restore. The pivoting time of Christianity when the father named the bride Christian the new promised name . .

How much alcohol did you drink before typing this? It's utterly incoherent.

Sorry .

LOL Not my cup of tea. . not a tea sipper. How much did you drink?

So then what time period do you think it was restored to? Or is that not what reformations do?

Here's a very good set of messages by Brian Chappell on the four views of the Millennium (premillennial dispensationalism, historic premillennialism, amillennialism and postmillennialism).

He prepared it for Bible Study Fellowship. This organization tends to avoid sectarian conflict.

Bryan is historic premillennial and I am amillennial, however, his portrayal of the four views is very accurate from what I've seen.

If you are trying to understand the differences between these groups, these are great videos to watch. The charts are very good.

In addition, his notes with the charts are in the pdf below (note that you can watch these on Vimeo but the preview will not appear here..the title is Four Views of the Millennium by Bryan Chappell and there are two parts).




The pdf of the notes is here, and also attached below:

https://media.gracepres.org/mediaplayer/gracepres/media/Four Views of the Millennium (Dr. Bryan Chapell).pdf?fbclid=IwAR2kzhSpOYdqSkGLAumM3foBfoJh6qniIVCXLfvJUQGIzY3OfNEuniLm1m8

Bryan points out that very few hold to the dispensationalism of previous eras, but instead hold to "progressive dispensationalism". One of the problems on this forum and others is that you have all kinds of different dispensationalists holding more modern views, or outdated views, of dispensationalism.

Bryan is much more ecumenical than I am on this topic. I don't care for dispensationalism at all.

Concerning the dispensationalist/covenant theology argument, which is assuredly foundational to the amillennial issue, I would suggest that the real issue with dispensationalism involves how they read NT references to the OT.

The apostles and Christ were definitely not dispensational in how they used OT Scripture, as they take Scripture applying to Israel and apply it to Jesus or believers, who are Jesus' body.

For example, you can read Matthew and see that Matthew takes Scriptures applying to Israel and applies them to Jesus.

Matthew 2:14-15 4 And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt 15 and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

Hosea 11:1 1 When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.

Why?

Jesus is true Israel.

And, Matthew does this over and over again in his gospel. That is because he wanted to show them that Jesus was the true Israel, as well as being the true Adam. He defeated evil, whereas the first Adam and first Israel did not. That is why the desert temptation scene is presented in Matthew 4. It was an echo of Adam's testing in the Garden of Eden, and Israel's testing in the wilderness.

And, Peter does the same thing for the Church when he takes Scriptures applying to Israel in Exodus 19 and alludes to them in his epistle.

Exodus 19:5-6 5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; 6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel.”

1 Peter 2:9-10 9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Why?

The Church, as Jesus' body, is True Israel.

It's really not hard to figure out that the Apostles believed in "covenant theology" because they take Scriptures applying to Israel and apply them to Jesus or the Church.

GK Beale and DA Carson wrote a long commentary where they examine every incidence where the NT quotes or alludes to the OT. It is on my reading list.

https://smile.amazon.com/Commentary...ed+in+the+new+testament&qid=1583315983&sr=8-2



Somehow I don't think many dispensationalists will be reading this. I plan on buying a copy though