Born Again

JOHN 3 [3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT A MAN BE BORN AGAIN, HE CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT A MAN BE BORN OF WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT, HE CANNOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.[6] That which is BORN OF THE FLESH IS FLESH; and that which is BORN OF THE SPIRIT IS SPIRIT.

Jesus tells Nic you must be born again to enter the kingdom. Verse 6 explains that which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the spirit is spirit.

1COR.15
[42] So also is THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
[43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. THERE IS A NATURAL BODY, AND THERE IS A SPIRITUAL BODY. ........
[49] AND AS WE HAVE BORNE THE IMAGE OF THE EARTHY, WE SHALL ALSO BEAR THE IMAGE OF THE HEAVENLY.
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

If you believe these scriptures to be true there can be no doubt about the “born again” event.

Yup. Ive heard that before. Now go read what the scriptures say

1PETER1
[4] To AN INHERITANCE INCORRUPTIBLE, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
[5] Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto SALVATION READY TO BE REVEALED IN THE LAST TIME.
[9] Receiving the END OF YOUR FAITH, EVEN THE SALVATION OF YOUR SOULS.[10] Of which salvation the prophets have i red and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
[13] Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and HOPE TO THE END FOR THE GRACE THAT IS TO BE BROUGHT UNTO YOU AT THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST;
[23] BEING BORN AGAIN, NOT OF CORRUPTIBLE SEED, BUT OF INCORRUPTIBLE, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1Peter1 is all about being born again. Its not something that happens during the life time of a believer. Thats plain to see.....
An inheritance
Revealed in the last time
End of your faith
Hope to the end
Grace brought at the revelation of Christ
Being born again

Ya know how some will say they were saved and then tell ya the specific day that they were born again. That doesnt fit with scripture.

ROMANS 8 [24] For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? [25] But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Scripture above says you are saved by hope and hope that is seen is not of hope. Now if someone claims they are already saved {born again} then what does he hope for?

1PETER1 [13] Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and HOPE TO THE END FOR THE GRACE THAT IS TO BE BROUGHT UNTO YOU AT THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST;

Hope to the end. Grace! When? When Christ returns.

1 THESSALONIANS 5 [2] For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD SO COMETH as a thief in the night. [3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. [4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. [5] Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. [6] Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. [7] For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. [8] But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, THE HOPE OF SALVATION.

Yup. Still hoping for salvation come the Day of the Lord

LOL!

pretty fresh for telling others how to be nice

you are as believable as the rest of your crew

since Calvinists are cessationists, it would seem you do not have the Holy Spirit leading you into all truth

It is about coming to the Light. That needs to happen now.

You need to stop hoping and start believing. Please make your decision today. None of us want to see you get left behind. We love you and Jesus loves you more.

Nicodemus came at night because he had much to hide. He was a Rabbi, a member of the Sanhedrin, and his reputation and future prosperity was at stake. I'll bet though, after meeting with the Lord, he became an avid follower. By the way, "born again" is actually a bad translation in the Greek. "Begotten from above" is what our Beloved actually told Nick. We must be born of woman, water, and born of the spirit, to make it back home again.

I would agree with almost everything you said..not sure what you are talking about in regards to the "embodiment of the Trinity". If you are saying the believer is united with Christ due to his faith, through the mediation of the Holy Spirit, and thus fellowships with the Triune God, I totally agree. And I expect that's what you are saying.

Regarding unconverted people, I think Charles Finney and his "decisional regeneration" is a primary reason why there are "unconverted Christians". So many people are taught that if you sign on the dotted line, or say a prayer, you are saved. It is not connected always with being born again.

And, like I said, this is the common free-willer "come to the altar" spiel, or "sign the card" spiel.

Now, do I believe some of those who have participated in altar calls were also regenerated? Yes....however, there is really no solid teaching concerning the concept of union with Christ, and how this union justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies the person. Many are clueless in this regard.

"once for all" means "one for all time".

It does not mean once for all people...otherwise his death was not effective for those who are lost.

If you carefully study the context each time it is used, you will see that these references in Hebrews are comparing the temporary nature of the animal sacrifices, which never really atoned for sin anyways, with the once for all time sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.

Read the verses surrounding these references, and you will see that this comparison is being made.

By the way, if anyone wants many verses proving limited atonement, I did a separate thread on this topic.

Here it is:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...atonement-biblical.187815/page-6#post-4096215

I am going to post this reply there as well.

So, if you adopt the free-willer view of the atonement, you are basically saying Jesus didn't atone for any person's sin, but he simply made atonement for their sin possible. It was not an actual atonement.

The Reformed view would be that Jesus actually atoned for all the sins of the elect, and earned for them every spiritual blessing that comes through union with Him.

The specific word does not have to be in a verse in order to be discussing the concept.

The concept is called "unconditional election", and the references related to being chosen, elected, predestined are pertinent.

I have a whole thread on this topic, and it lists the verses associated with it at the beginning.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/is-unconditional-election-biblical.187730/

It's a real dilemma sometimes..if a person is not aggressive, observers might think it is because the other person has the upper hand.

But I agree with you in theory.

There's a cluster of free willers here who hate any view contrary to their own. Same thing with dispensationalists.

Some aren't cantankerous, but some are.

I don't really think much about their opinions of my position. The shadow boxing serves the purpose of exposing other more open minded people to the pertinent concepts.

oyster67 is actually one of the more civil ones, and fairly easy to refute. So I thank God for him

Why not? Let’s discuss specifically the verses that contain the word predestined.

Like I told you, this word alone does not need to be specified in order to be a reference to unconditional election.

You are like non-Trinitarians who insist the word Trinity must be in the Bible or it isn't true.

od has a chosen people, called “the elect”

Matthew 11:27 27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Matthew 22:14 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Matthew 24:22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Matthew 24:24 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.


Matthew 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Luke 18:7 7 And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night?

Romans 8:28-30 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Romans 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

Colossians 3:12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,

1 Thessalonians 5:9 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness,

1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:
May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

1 Peter 2:8-10 8 …They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Revelation 17:14 14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”

God chose individuals for salvation

Mark 13:20 0 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days

Ephesians 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

2 Timothy 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

This choice occurred before the foundation of the world, and thus is unrelated to personal merit or works of the elect

Revelation 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Revelation 17:8 And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

Election precedes salvation

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,

2 Timothy 2:10 10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.


1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction
(ESV)

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:4 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

The basis for election is not works or personal merit of the elect person, but is solely related to God’s purpose and grace

Romans 9:11-13 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Romans 9:15-16 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy

Romans 10:20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,
“I have been found by those who did not seek me;
I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”

1 Corinthians 1:27-29 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.

2 Timothy 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began

Election brings about faith and good works, not vice versa

John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed

Acts 18:27 And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Philippians 1:29 29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,

Philippians 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 or we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ

James 2:5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?

The elect hear Jesus’ voice, and the non-elect will not hear Jesus’ voice

John 10:16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

John 10:4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

John 10:25-27 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Faith and repentance are gifts of God to the elect, issuing from a regenerate heart

Acts 16:14 4 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

Ephesians 2:8-10 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
(ESV)

Philippians 1:29-30 29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, 30 engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.

Acts 11:18 And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.

2 Timothy 2:25-26 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

Man’s salvation is an act of God’s sovereign, distinguishing mercy. It is not by man’s will, but is by God’s will, showing particular mercy and saving particular sinners

Exodus 33:19 And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The Lord.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.

Deuteronomy 7:6-7 6 “For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. 7 It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the Lord set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples,

Matthew 20:15 15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’

Romans 9:10-24 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Romans 11:4-6 4 But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

1 Kings 19:10 10 He said, “I have been very jealous for the Lord, the God of hosts. For the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword, and I, even I only, am left, and they seek my life, to take it away.”

1 Kings 19:18 18 Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”

Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will

od is sovereign over all things, and nothing comes to pass outside of his eternal purpose, including the salvation of those he has given to the Son

Job 42:1-2 1 Then Job answered the Lord and said: 2 “I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.


Psalms 115:3 Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.

Psalms 135:6 Whatever the Lord pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.

Isaiah 14:24 24 The Lord of hosts has sworn: “As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed,
so shall it stand,

Isaiah 14:27 For the Lord of hosts has purposed, and who will annul it?
His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back?

Isaiah 46:9-10 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me, 10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

Isaiah 55:11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

Jeremiah 32:17 17 ‘Ah, Lord God! It is you who have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm! Nothing is too hard for you

Daniel 4:35 all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”

Matthew 19:26 26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Jonah 2:9 9 But I with the voice of thanksgiving will sacrifice to you; what I have vowed I will pay.
Salvation belongs to the Lord!”


John 10:26-30 . 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”


John 6:35-40 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Any more questions?

My position is solid and biblical.

What that can lead to is falsely placing verses into a doctrine. Not good.

First, predestination is not the same as elect.