Are Christians given empowerment to do all the works Jesus did? Bethel and their resurrection claims
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My point is, where are you stepping out in faith? If we see the miraculous taking place in the lives of the cloud of witnesses we have before us, are we too having faith in God for the impossible? For the improbable? For the unlikely?
What if this faith wasn’t just passive but required action, as it often does? Where are you stepping out? Follow His lead.
What if this faith wasn’t just passive but required action, as it often does? Where are you stepping out? Follow His lead.
Here's a better question..how would you have constructed the poll, and what options did I leave out?
Do individual believers have gifts of healing or resurrecting the dead?
If yes, then:
Is this gift possessed by all or some?
If no, then:
Does God still heal based on his own sovereign purpose, upon the prayers of his people?
1. All individual believers have the gift of healing and resurrection from the dead.
2. Some individual believers have the gift of healing and resurrection from the dead.
3. No individual believers have the gift of healing and resurrection from the dead, but God heals and resurrects from the dead
according to his sovereign purpose, often in response to the prayers of his people.
4. No individual believers have the gift of healing and resurrection from the dead.
5. I don't know
Those would be five possibilities, and my position would be #3.
But, since you think the construction of the poll is not correct, please propose a list of options.
Do individual believers have gifts of healing or resurrecting the dead?
If yes, then:
Is this gift possessed by all or some?
If no, then:
Does God still heal based on his own sovereign purpose, upon the prayers of his people?
1. All individual believers have the gift of healing and resurrection from the dead.
2. Some individual believers have the gift of healing and resurrection from the dead.
3. No individual believers have the gift of healing and resurrection from the dead, but God heals and resurrects from the dead
according to his sovereign purpose, often in response to the prayers of his people.
4. No individual believers have the gift of healing and resurrection from the dead.
5. I don't know
Those would be five possibilities, and my position would be #3.
But, since you think the construction of the poll is not correct, please propose a list of options.
Faith and repentance are exhibited each time a person is saved.
By the way, if you listen to some of Mike Winger's criticisms of Bethel Church, he would tell you that he believes Bill Johnson is attempting to spark a revival with false miracles and overexaggerations, if not blatant misrepresentations.
Mike Winger is one of the few people calling themselves a charismatic I would listen to.
As I have said, I don't deny the reality of healings and perhaps even resurrections on rare occasions. It is charismatics that I distrust. I don't think they interpret events accurately, and in some cases I think they are mentally ill or deceived. I believe many of them are seeking to be viewed like gurus within Christianity through their claims.
And..let me ask you this question..answer it honestly. When have you seen an undeniable miracle occur? Describe it for me.
Is it something like a leg growing out an inch? Or, some type of illness that is possibly psychosomatic?
Did you ever see a blind person regain his vision completely? A deaf person completely regain their hearing? A severed limb regrown? A dead person resurrected after hours or days in the morgue?
It is easy to claim miracles, but do you have paperwork?
And, even if the miracle is true, do we see multiple miracles conducted by the same person?
Do you know Bill Johnson and his theology? Do you realize he claims that there is no such thing as a theology of suffering? He simply does not acknowledge that God uses suffering to conform people to the image of Christ.
Do you acknowledge that God uses suffering to conform people to the image of Christ?
By the way, if you listen to some of Mike Winger's criticisms of Bethel Church, he would tell you that he believes Bill Johnson is attempting to spark a revival with false miracles and overexaggerations, if not blatant misrepresentations.
Mike Winger is one of the few people calling themselves a charismatic I would listen to.
As I have said, I don't deny the reality of healings and perhaps even resurrections on rare occasions. It is charismatics that I distrust. I don't think they interpret events accurately, and in some cases I think they are mentally ill or deceived. I believe many of them are seeking to be viewed like gurus within Christianity through their claims.
And..let me ask you this question..answer it honestly. When have you seen an undeniable miracle occur? Describe it for me.
Is it something like a leg growing out an inch? Or, some type of illness that is possibly psychosomatic?
Did you ever see a blind person regain his vision completely? A deaf person completely regain their hearing? A severed limb regrown? A dead person resurrected after hours or days in the morgue?
It is easy to claim miracles, but do you have paperwork?
And, even if the miracle is true, do we see multiple miracles conducted by the same person?
Do you know Bill Johnson and his theology? Do you realize he claims that there is no such thing as a theology of suffering? He simply does not acknowledge that God uses suffering to conform people to the image of Christ.
Do you acknowledge that God uses suffering to conform people to the image of Christ?
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Believers who give offerings are stepping out in faith every time. Believers who study Scripture and pray are stepping out in faith every time. Believers who choose the good rather than the bad are stepping out in faith every time.
Have you ever read Hebrews 11? How many of those people experienced healings or resurrections? There's like, one phrase regarding healings or resurrections mentioned in the faith chapter, probably related to the widows in the days of Elijah and Elisha.
Funny how that works, isn't it? Hebrews was written to encourage people in the midst of suffering, yet Paul tells them about all these people who suffered without obtaining the goal of their salvation. And, they were commended for it.
I bet you don't see that chapter preached very often in charismatic circles. It flies in the very face of their claims.
Have you ever read Hebrews 11? How many of those people experienced healings or resurrections? There's like, one phrase regarding healings or resurrections mentioned in the faith chapter, probably related to the widows in the days of Elijah and Elisha.
Funny how that works, isn't it? Hebrews was written to encourage people in the midst of suffering, yet Paul tells them about all these people who suffered without obtaining the goal of their salvation. And, they were commended for it.
I bet you don't see that chapter preached very often in charismatic circles. It flies in the very face of their claims.
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My own miracle. I had an autoimmune disease that the doctors deemed incurable, life long. Yet did God have mercy on me as my father prayed for it to be healed. Ironically after that prayer it went into its worst phase and I was bedridden. After being in agonizing pain and calling out to God for that week, and my father’s prayer the pain subsided as it usually did but something different happened.
It never returned. It was gone. In fact it was gone to such a degree that my own miracle passed me by. I don’t know how it happened but months went by before I realized I didn’t have any symptoms. I was sitting on the couch when the thought hit me, sitting next to my father and mother. I then proclaimed to them what epiphany just hit me. “I’ve been cured!” My father wept.
I know God does the impossible. Even at birth did I contract a pneumonia, I was a few weeks old and was hospitalized. My father made sure to not leave my side but he had to get me a change of clothes. He left and returned, but something was awry. He entered the building as he saw people huddled around talking. He noticed I wasn’t in my room. A doctor approaches him. “It’s okay Dad. We are doing everything we can.” They lead him to the room where I laid. Flatlined. I was dead.
He with clothes clutched in hand turned to the wall and called out to God. “Lord I cannot return to Miriam with the news that Ben is dead. Give him double life Lord!” Beep beep beep. I came back to life.
I tell you that God does the impossible and to this day, He still makes something out of nothing. His words do not fall to the ground and He is gracious and full of compassion.
It never returned. It was gone. In fact it was gone to such a degree that my own miracle passed me by. I don’t know how it happened but months went by before I realized I didn’t have any symptoms. I was sitting on the couch when the thought hit me, sitting next to my father and mother. I then proclaimed to them what epiphany just hit me. “I’ve been cured!” My father wept.
I know God does the impossible. Even at birth did I contract a pneumonia, I was a few weeks old and was hospitalized. My father made sure to not leave my side but he had to get me a change of clothes. He left and returned, but something was awry. He entered the building as he saw people huddled around talking. He noticed I wasn’t in my room. A doctor approaches him. “It’s okay Dad. We are doing everything we can.” They lead him to the room where I laid. Flatlined. I was dead.
He with clothes clutched in hand turned to the wall and called out to God. “Lord I cannot return to Miriam with the news that Ben is dead. Give him double life Lord!” Beep beep beep. I came back to life.
I tell you that God does the impossible and to this day, He still makes something out of nothing. His words do not fall to the ground and He is gracious and full of compassion.
Having been raised Pentecostal it is my understanding that Pentecostal pastors would generally be against sowing a seed for miracles. Some of those prosperity gospel groups within the Charismatic movement and not the whole movement teach that.
I am not sure how electromagnetism would make this any more or less a miracle.
There are many, many people who can testify to healings through crusades, churches and one on one ministries. I saw a testimony about a former Time correspondent to Beijing was able 'triangulate' many testimonies about coming out of China by interviewing people about the healings there. I corresponded with a committee member of Randy Clark's dissertation committee about healings of backs in meeting. The had medical scholars on the committee too. I am not sure if he gas an academic pub on it yet. I've seen abstracts for academic articles on healings eg about healing of the blind and deaf in Uganda. Keener put out a 1200 page book Miracles disproving David Hume's arguments that miracles are not real because they are outside of the realm of human experience by showing numerous accounts if Christian healing abnd miracles.
Many of these healings and miracles were done through Pentecostals and 'charismatics'.
I am not sure how electromagnetism would make this any more or less a miracle.
There are many, many people who can testify to healings through crusades, churches and one on one ministries. I saw a testimony about a former Time correspondent to Beijing was able 'triangulate' many testimonies about coming out of China by interviewing people about the healings there. I corresponded with a committee member of Randy Clark's dissertation committee about healings of backs in meeting. The had medical scholars on the committee too. I am not sure if he gas an academic pub on it yet. I've seen abstracts for academic articles on healings eg about healing of the blind and deaf in Uganda. Keener put out a 1200 page book Miracles disproving David Hume's arguments that miracles are not real because they are outside of the realm of human experience by showing numerous accounts if Christian healing abnd miracles.
Many of these healings and miracles were done through Pentecostals and 'charismatics'.
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I recall seeing a video where a Greek Orthodox was arguing they are right and not the Copts or Ethiopians are right because their patriarch did the miracle with the fire lighting not the other group. If the miracle happens as they say, I do not see how that is an argument against other Christian groups. I saw a video of a Copt performuing an exorcism. Casting out demons in Jesus' name is a miracle. Plenty of Pentecostals and Charismatics also do this.
If you are God (as Jesus is), both are easy.
If you are not God (like every human being other than Jesus), both would be impossible, in the context of the paralytic.
Jesus' point was that if the man picks up his mat, proving his physical healing, it is assured his spiritual healing (forgiveness of sin) has been accomplished.
I'm not sure what your point is.
However, I will make this point..has anyone seen true paralytics (individuals with spinal cord damages, etcetera) get up and walk upon the alleged healing of a charismatic? If not, why? Has anyone seen people with an amputated limb grow it back, or eyes being regenerated by spit being applied to them?
Why do charismatics focus on legs that are 1/2 inch longer than another, or some trivial issue, when performing their "miracles"?
Again, I will repeat that I believe God performs some miracles sometimes. I don't think there is any guarantee of a miracle, nor do I think God usually does his miracles in a showmanlike fashion such as some charismatics claim.
If you are not God (like every human being other than Jesus), both would be impossible, in the context of the paralytic.
Jesus' point was that if the man picks up his mat, proving his physical healing, it is assured his spiritual healing (forgiveness of sin) has been accomplished.
I'm not sure what your point is.
However, I will make this point..has anyone seen true paralytics (individuals with spinal cord damages, etcetera) get up and walk upon the alleged healing of a charismatic? If not, why? Has anyone seen people with an amputated limb grow it back, or eyes being regenerated by spit being applied to them?
Why do charismatics focus on legs that are 1/2 inch longer than another, or some trivial issue, when performing their "miracles"?
Again, I will repeat that I believe God performs some miracles sometimes. I don't think there is any guarantee of a miracle, nor do I think God usually does his miracles in a showmanlike fashion such as some charismatics claim.
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You apparently mean "doesn't eventually age and die".
I think Hagin was the one who claimed he would live until he was over 120 years old.
He was dead and rotting by age 90.
Correct me if I'm wrong
My point was, no charismatic avoids the effects of the Curse through their personal healing. They all have visual defects, cavities, eyeglasses, and eventually die.
For all their huff, they can't prevent the effects of the Curse.
By the way, I believe the resurrection from the dead, which Christ has purchased for his elect, is ultimate full healing. That much I will go along with. I don't believe in any guarantees of healing and I don't think anyone can "declare" their healing or the healing of another. Healing is a sovereign act of God, solely at his discretion, and cannot be demanded or "declared" based on the atonement.
I think Hagin was the one who claimed he would live until he was over 120 years old.
He was dead and rotting by age 90.
Correct me if I'm wrong
My point was, no charismatic avoids the effects of the Curse through their personal healing. They all have visual defects, cavities, eyeglasses, and eventually die.
For all their huff, they can't prevent the effects of the Curse.
By the way, I believe the resurrection from the dead, which Christ has purchased for his elect, is ultimate full healing. That much I will go along with. I don't believe in any guarantees of healing and I don't think anyone can "declare" their healing or the healing of another. Healing is a sovereign act of God, solely at his discretion, and cannot be demanded or "declared" based on the atonement.
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Since Bethel Church is the primary article of discussion, I will provide this link to Mike Winger's video examining their false teachings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3tEv26OMTU
Mike Winger is a charismatic himself. I could find more caustic critiques by other apologists, but Mike is in the charismatic camp himself so his contribution isn't one that is unfriendly to charismaticism.
I like Mike's attitude and some of his reasoning, but not on every topic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3tEv26OMTU
Mike Winger is a charismatic himself. I could find more caustic critiques by other apologists, but Mike is in the charismatic camp himself so his contribution isn't one that is unfriendly to charismaticism.
I like Mike's attitude and some of his reasoning, but not on every topic.
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I have faith enough to endure suffering, as did the indviiduals mentioned in Hebrews 11.
I pray that you are given the faith to endure suffering without any promise of relief during this earthly lifetime, as that is the kind of faith that is real. The purpose of life is to be conformed to the image of Christ, and suffering is a part of this.
By the way, notice this..."the magnitude of my faith"......like all free-willers, this man has a focus on man rather than God.
The believer is united with Christ, therefore Christ's faith becomes his faith. It is true that the believer needs to pursue deeper levels of spiritual growth, but his faith is Christ's faith through the indwelling presence of Jesus mediated through the Holy Spirit.
I suspect that virtually no charismatic can even comprehend, let alone believe, what I just wrote. They don't understand union with Christ, and they don't understand how suffering is part of the process of conforming a believer to the image of Christ.
We're talking about spiritual kindergartners here.
And, Bill Johnson DENIES the place of suffering in salvation. Further, he calls it a false gospel if a person has an understanding that suffering conforms one to the image of Christ. Yet, the Bible plainly teaches it.
Notice the elitism inherent in these claims. "I'll pray that you reach the spiritual height I have reached".
Yet, I see no proof of his/her claims.
By the way I don't deny that God sometimes heals for his Sovereign purposes, largely related to validating a gospel presentation such as that of the Apostles.
I pray that you are given the faith to endure suffering without any promise of relief during this earthly lifetime, as that is the kind of faith that is real. The purpose of life is to be conformed to the image of Christ, and suffering is a part of this.
By the way, notice this..."the magnitude of my faith"......like all free-willers, this man has a focus on man rather than God.
The believer is united with Christ, therefore Christ's faith becomes his faith. It is true that the believer needs to pursue deeper levels of spiritual growth, but his faith is Christ's faith through the indwelling presence of Jesus mediated through the Holy Spirit.
I suspect that virtually no charismatic can even comprehend, let alone believe, what I just wrote. They don't understand union with Christ, and they don't understand how suffering is part of the process of conforming a believer to the image of Christ.
We're talking about spiritual kindergartners here.
And, Bill Johnson DENIES the place of suffering in salvation. Further, he calls it a false gospel if a person has an understanding that suffering conforms one to the image of Christ. Yet, the Bible plainly teaches it.
Notice the elitism inherent in these claims. "I'll pray that you reach the spiritual height I have reached".
Yet, I see no proof of his/her claims.
By the way I don't deny that God sometimes heals for his Sovereign purposes, largely related to validating a gospel presentation such as that of the Apostles.
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I find it odd that you went months without noticing that you had been healed, yet it was a serious condition.
By the way, I am wondering what you mean by an autoimmune disease. For instance, I have psoriasis and it is considered an autoimmune disease. It is there sometimes for months, and it is gone sometimes for months. I suppose I could go without it for years, especially if I lost weight (being obese relates to the problem).
When you flatlined, were you actually dead? I doubt it. You were revived so you weren't truly dead. Perhaps your dad was noticing a momentary halt in breathing, or a malfunction of the instruments, etcetera. Numerous people are "resurrected" by medical intervention as well..
However, these sort of events are overblown in the charismatic mind and declared to be healings. I don't really see anything I would identify as a healing here, from the details related.
But, then again, I don't doubt that sometimes God heals. This is a far cry from Bethel Church and the claims of many charismatics that there is no place for suffering in the lives of a believer, and that there is a guarantee of deliverance from suffering within the atonement in this lifetime. And, the claim that believers individually are able to perform all the miracles of Jesus is ludicrous.
Like I said, I haven't heard any single person claim to raise himself from the dead, like Jesus did (see John 2). I don't doubt that such claims exist, though. My guess is charismatics will try to do that as a test of their advanced spirituality. Maybe that's what is behind drinking poison and handling deadly snakes.
By the way, I am wondering what you mean by an autoimmune disease. For instance, I have psoriasis and it is considered an autoimmune disease. It is there sometimes for months, and it is gone sometimes for months. I suppose I could go without it for years, especially if I lost weight (being obese relates to the problem).
When you flatlined, were you actually dead? I doubt it. You were revived so you weren't truly dead. Perhaps your dad was noticing a momentary halt in breathing, or a malfunction of the instruments, etcetera. Numerous people are "resurrected" by medical intervention as well..
However, these sort of events are overblown in the charismatic mind and declared to be healings. I don't really see anything I would identify as a healing here, from the details related.
But, then again, I don't doubt that sometimes God heals. This is a far cry from Bethel Church and the claims of many charismatics that there is no place for suffering in the lives of a believer, and that there is a guarantee of deliverance from suffering within the atonement in this lifetime. And, the claim that believers individually are able to perform all the miracles of Jesus is ludicrous.
Like I said, I haven't heard any single person claim to raise himself from the dead, like Jesus did (see John 2). I don't doubt that such claims exist, though. My guess is charismatics will try to do that as a test of their advanced spirituality. Maybe that's what is behind drinking poison and handling deadly snakes.
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