What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

Reread your verses and the one you omit.

Read them TOGETHER.

BEFORE THE FLOOD
ONE TAKEN,ONE LEFT
WATCH AND PRAY

BOOM
BOOM
BOOM

PRETRIB RAPTURE

Here you go:
Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

144k firstfruits gathered and in heaven Jews

Then more gathered,After the firstfruits;

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Christ comes down from [heaven] above (bringing with Him the souls of the saved that were with Him in heaven), stopping somewhere "in the air" above the earth.

Then, He catches up the saved from the earth along with those [bodies] from the graves (which "reunite" with the soul) - and, all are transformed.

Then, He dishes out the Wrath of God upon the earth (and the lost souls that remain after the rapture).

Then, He finishes His descent down to the earth, stands on the Mount of Olives, etc. - and the 1000-year reign of Christ has begun!

I just listened through A LONG debate series between Doug Stafford (spelling?) and Joe Schimmel on pre-trib vs post-trib rapture and SURPRISE SURPRISE: at the end of each speech I was like "Yup, thats Biblical, AMEN" so turns out, they were both right down the line and had explanations to the objections of each other.

When is the rapture? Thats a pre-postreous question!

It's a little ironic you brought this up because I was doing some research on this subject and found the following site. https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/PW/k/428/Caught-Up-in-Rapture.htm

Now mind you, even though I'm a postribulationist I have never heard of this guy but he does makes some good, valid and Biblical points. It's also interesting that if you look up the word "rapture" which is a Latin word in Stongs Lexicon the world does not appear. Neither does the word "harpagesometha" which means, "caught up." So the question still remains, when? Before or after the great tribulation? I'm personally convinced by the evidence it's after. Tell me what you think?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

You say that there "He doesn't say a word about going back to heaven with Him." So let's pick apart the scripture.

"In my Father's house are many mansions"

The Father's house is without a doubt in heaven. Would you not agree?

"if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you"

Then in the line above, Jesus says that He is going to prepare a place for us. The "place" that He is going to prepare for us would be in the Father's house, which He previously mentioned

"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Then Jesus says that since He is going to prepare places for us, which again is in the Father's house and which is in heaven, then He is going to come again and receive us to himself so that where He is we can be with Him.

I shouldn't even have to explain this, because it is straight forward in its meaning. So, I don't know how you could say that Jesus doesn't say anything about taking us back to heaven. That Jesus is taking us back to heaven can be deduced from verse two alone:

"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

In my Father's house = heaven

I go and prepare a place for you = In the Father's house



The above has nothing to do with Jesus coming for His church, but is in reference to Israel during the Millennial kingdom, which follows the tribulation period.

In your statement above, you are just misapplying scripture to support your position, which doesn't support it. For one, the Father's house is not on this earth, which is the key to understanding where Jesus went to prepare those places for us. We know from other scriptures that Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father, not to Israel.

You are very confused not understanding that God has a different program for the church and the nation Israel. As I said, the scripture that you posted above is in reference to Israel, not the church.

Since Jesus went to the Father's house to prepare places for believers, the next part of the prophecy is about to be fulfilled when He returns to take us back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us.

Sometimes I feel as if you and others are purposely resisting the truth.

Well.... Are there 2 raptures or not

I'm sorry but your "frustration" is unfounded when you said, "Sometimes I feel as if you and others are purposely resisting the truth." Did it ever occure to you that faith is never without a basis of evidence. God ask no man to trust without evidence, just read Hebrews 11:1.

Just because Jesus said at John 14:1-3 to not let your heart be troubled because I am going to prepare a place with mansions etc. does not prove when He is coming back pretribulationally. The disciples (and I'm talking context here) were troubled because of several depressing occurrences.

First, Jesus had told them He was depareting from them at John 13:33. Second, He implied that He would suffer death by crucifixion at John 12:32-33. Third, He said all would forsake Him and Peter would deny Him at John 13:38. You can also include John 16:32 about the forsaking part. Jesus also stated that one of them would betray Him. John 13:21. Finally, He had told them they could not follow Him until later. John 13:36

What Jesus is "obviously" doing is comforting and if you read the rest of John 14 there are still a little confused because Thomas ask Him at John 14:5 where are you going. Even Jesus Himself is a little annoyed at John 14:9. So, in spite of all this the question that Wall ask you still remains, "Are there two raptures or not?" I would also ask, "How does Jesus saying He is going to prepare a place" translate in a pretrib rapture? I mean I read your explanation that in heaven or in My Fathers house are many mansions how does that prove when the second coming takes place? In short, it does not wash.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

The pretrib guy anahilates Joes presentation.
Joe misrepresented Rev 20,and with all postribs is not aware that the 7th trump DOESS NOT SOUND AT THE END OF THE GT.
Read it for yourself. It sounds DURING the gt with a ton of,stuff happening AFTER the 7th trump.(during the gt)
Joe leaves out the bride and groom dynamic and that Noah and Lot are PRETRIB dynamics.
Postrib rapture is impossible.

are the 144k firstrfruits?

Firstfruits of what?
What follows firstfruits?

That means you place non believers,heathens as;
virgins (born again)
having oil (the Holy Spirit)
having light(lamps)
in the assembly with believers
waiting on Jesus.

Yep,when I see all that in a believer,,,,,,,(iknow they are lost....or saved?)

It will be a horrible sad time for them

One has to do with oil,intimacy,the other has to do with entrustments.

Well bro just from READING the Scriptures for what they say PLAINLY i believe the rapture is at the last trumpet, it matches the description of Revelation 11:15ff really well, as the article you linked shows too. BUT BROSKI: The problem is, in light of the verses that you quoted earlier on here too: 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9, all the parables of the sheep and goats, wheat and tares etc etc. THEY ALL pose one big problem for post-tribbers which is: WHO REBELS at the end of the millennium? Since all the saved are resurrected/raptured at the second coming, and all the wicked are destroyed, WHO IS LEFT in the flesh to populate the millennium? Riddle me that, and you got yourself a post-tribber!

I've read commentaries that say on 2 Thess 1:7-9 that only those who WILLINGLY reject will be slain but IONO about that in light of the sheep and goats parable etc. We would basically have a kingdom full of survivors that were UNBELIEVERS, so the question would also be: WHY did they not take the mark of the beast if they are still UNSAVED after the whole tribulation period AND why would Jesus let unbelievers into His kingdom!

Since i tend to BLAPPER alot, i decided to put in BOLD my questions to you, so it catches your eye and hopefully ima get a reply from you or some other post-tribber so yall dont just skip my message thinking "OH ITS THAT CRAZY BABOON POSTIN AGAin; I AINT READING THAT DRIVEL". Bwahahaha!

?rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

There is business done in heaven
Jesus said:"i will not drink of the vine again till i drink it anew with you in heaven"
(Marrige supper in heaven)
Rev 19 the bride became the wife in heaven
And marrige supper referenced
All in heaven
Making postrib rapture impossible.

10 virgin parable does not read "so they ,the bride and groom returned to the dwelling of the bride (earth)"
Nope says they went to marrige chamber

Like you say,Jesus went to heaven as depicted in the last supper and prepared that marrige chamber in heaven.

Truly and vividly a pretrib rapture.

No! Ill be saying the scriptures were wrong. Ill know that in 7 yrs after the rapture Jesus will return for the Day of the Lord.

Matthew 25:13 (KJV)
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

And Matt.25 says i wont know

Oh boy, how should I go about addressing what you have stated? Let me first say that I consider myself a "rational empiricist." Doubting Thomas was a "rational empiricist" in that he wanted to see evidence of our Lord's resurrection at John 20:25-28. I also like to think logically and use common sense. God in "NEVER" illogical, at times He is "a-logical" which means He goes beyond logic.

Now, who is the one that started all this talk about the return of the Lord Jesus Christ? Three of the disciples ask Jesus Christ at Matthew 24:3 the following question? "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age/world?" The "what things" are found at Matthew 24:1-2.

What Jesus is saying is not only in a Jewish context but what will happen at the end of the world. I say Jewish context based on Matthew 24:20, "But pray that your flight is not in the winter, or on a "SABBATH." Plus, there is no doubt the Temple was completely destroyed at 70AD. and the events in the Matthew 24 will still apply before His second coming.

So you have at Matthew 24:15, "Therefore when you see the Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, (let the reader understand.) Understand what? What we are suppose to do in the following verses. Then notice Matthew 24:29, "But IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS" you can read for yourself that the Son of Man will appear etc.

Now, as a personal note or question, I don't understand that after reading this and after others are reading it, why are they jumping to the Book of Revelation? We have at Matthew 24:3, the phrase or the words, "and the end of the world." We have at 1 Corinthians 15:52, "at the last trumpet." And how about the "last day" at John 12:48. And at 1 Thessalonians 5: 1-4 where it references "that day" of the day of the Lord. Or when do we get rest or relief at 2 Thess. 1:6-7, when the Lord is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire."

The Apostle Paul further explains at 2 Thess. 2:2 abut the "day" of the Lord and it comes "AFTER" the man of sin is revealed just like Jesus said at Matthew 24:15-29. And let us not forget the purpose of the parable of the ten virgins and the slaves at Matthew 25.

Jesus expects us to be ready by redeeming the time instead of doing what the lost are doing. Eating, drinking and doing business as usual not believeing the day of the Lord will overtake them. Five of the ten virgins were foolish and they were not saved, they ended up being lost. They professed to be Chritians but the Lord said at Matthew 25:12, "I did not know you."

Jesus also said in the parable of the slaves and talents at Matthew 25 that the one slave did nothing with his one talent. He too was a professing Christian but check out what happened to him at Matthew 25:29-30, "For to everyone has more be given, and shall have an abundance; but from the one who does not even what he does not have shall be taken away. Question? What happens to him?

Verse30, "And cast out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Now pay attention to the next verse, Matthew 25:31, "But when the Son of Man comes in HIs glory and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. vs32, "And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. vs33, and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on His left."

So, upon reading both Matthew 24 and chapter 25, where is the pretrib rapture? Why in the world does Jesus give us parables for us to be alert and ready for His second coming? He then tell us the ones that are not ready and alert, i.e the five foolish virgins and the one slave with his one talent are cast into hell?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I get all that, but WHO populates the millennium? As I said in bold in my previous post.

I agree that the idea of a rapture coming and second coming is ALL TOO CONFUSING for the first century reader, thats why it aint in NONE of the creeds written throughout the centuries. CENTURIES BRO. Not a single creed mentions a word of it! To be honest MOST creeds are AMIL!

I just listened through it too (since you reference it here)… I wasn't able to focus as intently to the second half of it due to distractions I kept having (where I am), but even up to the 23:14-min mark I noted a few "wrong turns" made by Joe S (the first speaker); for example, he seems to show a misunderstanding (or evidencing a FORGETTING of),
1 Corinthians 15:25-26 -
"For it behooves Him to reign until He shall have put all the enemies under His feet. The last enemy to be abolished is death."

(and these two verses ^ should be understood in view of v.24 which has the "THEN [G1534] the end" word [(in bold) distinct from the OTHER "then" word used elsewhere, like in 1Th4:17], where THIS "THEN [G1534]" word does not carry the meaning of "then IMMEDIATELY" or "then CONSEQUENTLY" or "then FOLLOWING ON THE HEELS" or "then AS THE AFTERMATH," but instead is a SEQUENCE word, with NO TIME ELEMENT attached to it--so IOW, verse 24 is not saying "then immediately [once ppl are "resurrected"] the END [OF THE MK also happens, when "the last enemy shall be destroyed at the GWTj"]." NO. This passage is not saying that like the "amill-teachings" insist that it does).

SO...Joe S is showing a SIMILIAR disregard for "what all is entailed" in the phrase "[sit...] until thine enemies shall be made a footstool for His feet" (which he is suggesting occurs only at the time of His 2nd Coming to the earth in Rev19); I've been pointing out the passages showing where Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Rev5:6; Isa3:13, [Lam2:3-4 paralleling the wording of 2Th2:7b-8a]) following a "searching judgment" ("was found" Rev5:4), and where the 24 elders have "stephanos/crowns" and are sitting on "thrones" (in Heaven, b/f the 1st Seal is opened--for the time period referred to as the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period, Rev1:1/22:6 [/1:19c/4:1 (7:3)], which parallels the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period spoken of in Romans 16:20 "shall bruise Satan UNDER *YOUR* FEET *in quickness [noun]*" [addressed to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"],

...so this is consistent with the 1Cor6:3 "know ye not that WE SHALL JUDGE ANGELS" verse [see also v.14! note the 2nd verb there!] which the post-trib viewpoint does not account for [esp when you consider that Isa24:21-22[23]'s FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words parallels [time-wise] the Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 time-slot of His Second Coming to the earth, when "they will be shut up in the pit... prison" [speaking of the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth], and considering that at mid-trib "Satan and his angels" will be "cast unto the earth" [to thereafter be limited to that sphere, and he will be "having great wrath" from that point]

...IOW, the "subdue" His enemies doesn't just commence at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, but way back when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (just b/f He opens the FIRST SEAL at the START of the trib--and when you compare 2Th2:7b-8a with the language in Lam2:3-4 [vv.1-7 wider context], you see that the enemy is WHO HE USES to subdue others... so BY THAT MEANS ALSO; meaning, when He unleashes the "man of sin"/"anti[/pseudo-]christ"/"rider on the white horse with a bow [bow often meaning DECEPTION]" at SEAL #1, He is ALREADY doing at that point what Joe S is saying HE WON'T DO until REV19! Wrong!)

And that just covers the Heb10:12-13 verses he used... I already made a long post (diff thread) about why I see the Heb9:27-28 "A SECOND TIME" argument as not holding water (I may try to come back later and link that post, if I can find it).

So, no, even in the first 23:14-mins part that I *was* able to listen to intently (before distractions arose, here where I am), I see his "mis-steps" made very apparent (this post covers a bit, made to that point).

^ EDIT to add: Here's the Post I'd made about the "Hebrews 9:28 'A SECOND TIME'" argument that post-tribbers present to make their case that He can ONLY come at the time of His Second Coming to the earth Rev19 (and that otherwise it would be "THE THIRD TIME" and scripture doesn't say that here in this verse! [is their argument]):

Post #239 (page 12 of the "which gospel" thread) -

https://christianchat.com/threads/which-gospel.188731/post-4091294