Your claim above is your error! Because you do indeed need to take a ride on the circular highway (bring in the all related scriptures) in order to come to a right conclusion. That God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place prior to the Lord returning to the earth and that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, would demonstrate that we cannot go through that time of wrath and therefore the Lord's promise of gathering us from the earth must take place prior to said wrath. You're not putting two and two together.
Also, as I continue to point out, those who believe that the church is going to be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, have not understood the severity of that wrath, that by the time that it is over, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled. It is also important to understand that God's wrath was already poured out upon Jeseus, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe in His Son. This is some more of that circular highway stuff that you need to include in your eschatology.
Look at these passages. I f you look at Matthew 24:30-31 in context, Christ's parousia happens after the great tribulation. If you read I Thessalonians 4:16-17 in context, it happens at Christ's parousia. Paul refers to the coming of our Lord Jesus CHrist and our gathering unto him in II Thess. 2:1, which pre-tribbers typically take to refer to the rapture. But Matthew 24:30-31 sets the gathering at the parousia.[/quote]
Parousia is just a word! You are trying to pigeonhole this word to refer to a specific event, while at the same time ignoring that circular highway stuff. In short, you can't see the trees for the forest.
While you are trying to convince me that the our gathering takes place when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, you ignore the fact that scripture also says that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. In essence, you adopt one part of scripture and then sweep the information under the rug by creating weak apologetics in support of your claim.
The gathering of the church = Jesus descends from heaven, the dead in Christ rise first and then the living are changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. At that point and according to John 14:1-3, Jesus then takes the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us. At this point, Jesus does not return to the earth, but appears only to gather His church.
Second Coming = Jesus, along with the church and the angels, descends to the earth to strike down the nations who will be gathered against Him at Armageddon. It is at this same time that the beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire and when Satan is locked up in the Abyss. This is also the time when the Lord will establish His millennial kingdom.
First of all, the new Jerusalem is never mentioned as those places that Jesus went to prepare for us. I'm not saying that it isn't. I'm just saying that the scripture does not state that those places that the Lord went to prepare for us as referring to the new Jerusalem. It's implied by some believers. However, even if the places that Jesus went to prepare for us is in the New Jerusalem, there is no conflict. For we don't know when the new Jerusalem is created. Just because John sees the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven after the great white throne judgment, doesn't mean that it didn't exist before hand. For all we know, it could be completed and ready to go right now and just waiting for the church to be gathered.
I've heard this apologetic many times. The problem with is that, all of those people needed to remain on the earth. For Israel, God had promised them the promised land. How could He fulfill His promise if He removed Israel from the earth? God told Noah to build an Ark so that he would escape the flood. If God removed Noah and His family from the earth, there would be no one on the earth today. Lot and His family were able to escape to a small town out of the destruction zone. Jesus said that the tribulation period would be the worst time in the history from the beginning of creation, until now and never to be equaled again. And that if that time was allowed to go on any longer than the allotted time, no one on earth would be left alive. Regarding the church, there is no Ark to get into, no promised land to obtain on this earth and no small city for the church to flee to. That combined with the fact that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then we must be removed from the earth prior to God's wrath, just as the Lord promised:
"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."
In the scripture above, Jesus says that he will keep us out of that hour of trial, not through it, or during it, but keep us out of that time of tribulation, which is going to come upon the whole inhabited world.
We won't be here!
Here is the scripture that you are referring to:
"Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. "
First of all, Paul is addressing believers, referring to them as "brothers." He is comforting them regarding those believers who have already died, that when the resurrection takes place, the spirits of those who have died Jesus will bring with Him, where at which time they will be reunited with their resurrected bodies. So, those Paul is referring to that have died, are believers of whom he is comforting them about. Immediately after that, we who are still alive will be changed and caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. Then according to John 14:1-3, Jesus will take the entire church back to those dwelling places, whether it is referring to the New Jerusalem or other places that He prepared, it doesn't change the fact that Jesus will be taking us back to the Father's house in heaven.
Presidente, none of the things that you have brought up have caused a problem with the church being gathered pre-tribulation.
You are very confused in your understanding of end-time events! One of your problems besides misapplying scripture, is that you don't understand the nature of God, that He does not punish the righteous with the wicked. In answer to this you say, God is going to protect the church during His time of wrath, which shows that you don't understand the severity of that coming wrath, nor do you understand who God's wrath is going to be poured out on during that time and why.
You will just have to wait and find out the answer to this. And when you see it take place just as I and others have said it would, then you will say, "ah, they were right."
Also, as I continue to point out, those who believe that the church is going to be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, have not understood the severity of that wrath, that by the time that it is over, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled. It is also important to understand that God's wrath was already poured out upon Jeseus, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe in His Son. This is some more of that circular highway stuff that you need to include in your eschatology.
Look at these passages. I f you look at Matthew 24:30-31 in context, Christ's parousia happens after the great tribulation. If you read I Thessalonians 4:16-17 in context, it happens at Christ's parousia. Paul refers to the coming of our Lord Jesus CHrist and our gathering unto him in II Thess. 2:1, which pre-tribbers typically take to refer to the rapture. But Matthew 24:30-31 sets the gathering at the parousia.[/quote]
Parousia is just a word! You are trying to pigeonhole this word to refer to a specific event, while at the same time ignoring that circular highway stuff. In short, you can't see the trees for the forest.
While you are trying to convince me that the our gathering takes place when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, you ignore the fact that scripture also says that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. In essence, you adopt one part of scripture and then sweep the information under the rug by creating weak apologetics in support of your claim.
The gathering of the church = Jesus descends from heaven, the dead in Christ rise first and then the living are changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. At that point and according to John 14:1-3, Jesus then takes the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us. At this point, Jesus does not return to the earth, but appears only to gather His church.
Second Coming = Jesus, along with the church and the angels, descends to the earth to strike down the nations who will be gathered against Him at Armageddon. It is at this same time that the beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire and when Satan is locked up in the Abyss. This is also the time when the Lord will establish His millennial kingdom.
First of all, the new Jerusalem is never mentioned as those places that Jesus went to prepare for us. I'm not saying that it isn't. I'm just saying that the scripture does not state that those places that the Lord went to prepare for us as referring to the new Jerusalem. It's implied by some believers. However, even if the places that Jesus went to prepare for us is in the New Jerusalem, there is no conflict. For we don't know when the new Jerusalem is created. Just because John sees the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven after the great white throne judgment, doesn't mean that it didn't exist before hand. For all we know, it could be completed and ready to go right now and just waiting for the church to be gathered.
I've heard this apologetic many times. The problem with is that, all of those people needed to remain on the earth. For Israel, God had promised them the promised land. How could He fulfill His promise if He removed Israel from the earth? God told Noah to build an Ark so that he would escape the flood. If God removed Noah and His family from the earth, there would be no one on the earth today. Lot and His family were able to escape to a small town out of the destruction zone. Jesus said that the tribulation period would be the worst time in the history from the beginning of creation, until now and never to be equaled again. And that if that time was allowed to go on any longer than the allotted time, no one on earth would be left alive. Regarding the church, there is no Ark to get into, no promised land to obtain on this earth and no small city for the church to flee to. That combined with the fact that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then we must be removed from the earth prior to God's wrath, just as the Lord promised:
"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."
In the scripture above, Jesus says that he will keep us out of that hour of trial, not through it, or during it, but keep us out of that time of tribulation, which is going to come upon the whole inhabited world.
We won't be here!
Here is the scripture that you are referring to:
"Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. "
First of all, Paul is addressing believers, referring to them as "brothers." He is comforting them regarding those believers who have already died, that when the resurrection takes place, the spirits of those who have died Jesus will bring with Him, where at which time they will be reunited with their resurrected bodies. So, those Paul is referring to that have died, are believers of whom he is comforting them about. Immediately after that, we who are still alive will be changed and caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. Then according to John 14:1-3, Jesus will take the entire church back to those dwelling places, whether it is referring to the New Jerusalem or other places that He prepared, it doesn't change the fact that Jesus will be taking us back to the Father's house in heaven.
Presidente, none of the things that you have brought up have caused a problem with the church being gathered pre-tribulation.
You are very confused in your understanding of end-time events! One of your problems besides misapplying scripture, is that you don't understand the nature of God, that He does not punish the righteous with the wicked. In answer to this you say, God is going to protect the church during His time of wrath, which shows that you don't understand the severity of that coming wrath, nor do you understand who God's wrath is going to be poured out on during that time and why.
You will just have to wait and find out the answer to this. And when you see it take place just as I and others have said it would, then you will say, "ah, they were right."
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