What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

The only proof comes from denied context, denied verbiage, denied definitions of words, verses yanked out of context, a misapplication of the word of God, a denial of what the word saints actually means, the complete ignorance of Revelation being written to churches, denial of the word KEPT in Revelation, regurgitated error, false teachers, misapplication of the bible, ignorantly making wrath and tribulation the same thing etc......

I was raised in that farce, had it crammed down my throat with no factual evidence, believed it and peddled it just like most do today.... and at the end of the day the bible does not support a pre-tribulation ingathering.....it does support a pre-wrath ingathering....

Exactly! Good comparison.

This is correct. And the judgments extend throughout the 70th week of Daniel (seven years) with the intensity increasing as time goes by. The Tribulation is a period of wrath -- God's wrath supplement with Satan's wrath. The Great Tribulation is such as has never been nor will ever be. And it will culminate in cataclysmic cosmic events such as cannot be imagined.

This entire period is reserved for the unbelieving and the ungodly. BUT GOD HAS NOT APPOINTED US (BELIEVERS) TO WRATH BUT TO OBTAIN SALVATION. That is why it is critical that Christians understand the full meaning (and scope) of the finished work of Christ, and the penal substitutionary atonement which was accomplished at the cross.

I believe in pre-trib rapture.... why? because that is how I want it to be! I really think I will be dead before Messiah return, the rapture or the tribulation... but if not I like the idea of per-trib so why not believe in pre-trib. If it is not just die for Messiah. The idea of being torchered for Messiah, sucks, or torcherd for anything, but I am lucky I am type one diabetic so if I do not get insulin I will go into a coma and die pretty quickly anyway.... I am a lucky duck if it is post-trib and if it is in my lifetime. I kind of feel bad for the people who cannot die of natural causes like me!!

We can find scripture about the elect being gathered after the tribulation. It is right there in Matthew 24.

Also, I Thessalonians 4 mentions those who are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord being raptured. What else happens at the parousia? That wicked in II Thessalonians 4 is destroyed by the brightness of the Lord's parousia.

Your taking a 'problem' that isn't really a big problem and solving it with something the Bible does not teach at all. I take this post as basically an admission than the Bible never teaches a pre-trib rapture. We should take 'not appointed unto wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ' to mean that Christians will not suffer the wrath of God, not that they won't be on the earth which might be affected by God's wrath. Create a whole new return of Christ for such a non-issue makes no sense at all.

This looks like the logical fallacy of an appeal to fear. It's going to be so bad and scary, that you just can't believe you might be here. But those overcomers Revelation talks about, they can be hear during that time.

You need to broaden your thinking. God let Christians go through being fed to lions. Jesus warned the disciples of persecution that would happen. Consider all the suffering and persecution in the early church. Does that mean Jesus does not love the church? Of course not.

The idea that if God loves us, that He won't have us suffer tribulation is clearly an unbiblical way of things. That's also one concern that every pre-tribber should have, "Am I only believing this because I want to believe that we will not suffer."

If pre-tribbers are wrong, the teaching is not preparing the saints to endure hardship like the Bible teaches.

The great tribulation is going to be way worse than any suffering Christians have ever faced.

God does not punish the righteous with the wicked on the last day .The day he executes it. Then comes is a division (lambs and goats)

Some to eternal life others never to rise to new life.

God does cause the righteous to suffer his judgement of corruption all the days of their lives because of Adam as a tribulation with the wicked. It is the wrath of God that is being revealed from heaven a dying creation. . . living on borrowed time approx. 70 years

There is no heaven on this corrupted creation heaven and earth.. No hell in the next . We are experiencing the works of hell, a living suffering.

One thing that I have learned that does cause a problem when trying to reconcile is how people define hell as to how it applies to their end time timing . The bible clearly define it as the suffering we go through in this life ending when we do die .

I love reading your posts brother. Notice also during the first trumpet it says all green grass was burned up, that will be a disaster when it comes to agriculture, going to be very tough surviving that alone.

Post-tribbers play down the severity of the trumpets and vials. I even heard one post-trib pre-wrath Pastor say about the seals the Lamb opens "Look, its natural disaster, its nothing supernatural".

When confronted with the Darby nonsense, I say the first post-tribbers in Church history were the ones who were telling the Thessalonians something that shook their minds and Paul had to send them a letter to correct them saying the day of the Lord is not yet, do not let your hearts be troubled. Why would their minds be troubled about the Second Coming? It would be a moment to rejoice, not something to be shaken up about.

I do not base my faith on the Church fathers, but even in there you can find some imminent return passages and a few plain statements that says Church is caught up from this prior to the tribulation. Anyone who is interested can google the quotes.

Dispensational pre-trib doctrine is like carefully organizing verses putting Bible truths in the right time period and looking at who is spoken to. That is why the so much quoted Matthew 24:29-31 is in no way proof against the pre-trib Rapture.
This event is the same as in Isaiah, where a trumpet is blown and the elect are gathered, no mention of a resurrection, no mention of dead in Christ rising first, they are gathered to Jerusalem not to the Father's house in heaven.

I still believe reading the Scriptures literally (unless context says otherwise) and comparing Scripture with Scripture will lead one to become a pre-trib believer. The people who take the Bible seriously are almost always pre-tribbers, whereas those who dont seem to care much are high-church amillennialists or postmillennialists who will not even open up the book of Revelation. Even Martin Luther struggled with understanding it, precisely because of his roman catholic background.

I notice an increase in interest to prophecy each time there is a revival happening and God is moving.

Even the first coming had different phases of it. Jesus was born and lived, then was crucified. Then he resurrected and appeared to many people and went back up.

Are you stocking up on supplies? Do you have a bunker ready? I still maintain its our spiritual state the Lord is concerned with moreso than survival in the flesh running from the antichrist.

Is Glenn Beck still selling tribulation survival kits?

Do you think that Jesus does not love the saints who love not their lives, even to the death?

I was talking about being prepared spiritually and also mentally and emotionally. Whether we go through 'the great tribulation' or not, we could all potentially go through tribulation. There are Christians in North Korea in prison right now for the faith.

I wonder if there will be people taking the mark of the beast who will justify it to themselves by saying, "This can't be the mark of the beast because the preacher said I would be raptured before that happened if I repeated a prayer after him, and I cannot lose my salvation if I repeated those words."

Sure He does. What part of the Church will be going through the great tribulation? And why?

Is this supposed to be an argument for the pre-trib rapture? God will let saints go through great tribulation in the book of Revelation.

Who are the 144,000 tribulation witnesses in Revelation 7?

That's how I left pre-trib. I could not find pre-trib in there, and I found plenty of scripture against it. I do not see where the Bible addresses pre-trib. It's hard to argue for something that Bible does not teach. If you can find some passage that teaches pre-trib, that would be a nice thought. I, or at least my flesh, kind of like the idea of not suffering. But part of me knows better.

I used to think like that about other doctrines. Then I met Christians who thought differently and got a little perspective on history. Pre-trib has been popular for less than 200 years. The only evidence I have found for anyone believing it before Darby was a comment from a monk who went by Ephraim, who seems to have gotten his eschatology confused.

Historically, most Christians were not pre-trib, and pre-mil adherents were not pre-trib either. What I notice with a lot of pre-tribbers is a strange lack of attention to what the Bible teaches. There are a lot of pre-tribbers who seem to think you get saved by repeating a prayer, even after not hearing about the crucifixion and resurrection preached, as if the ritual of repeating a prayer saves instead of salvation being by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Christians of past generations that were not pre-tribbers seemed to hold the Bible in a higher place of honor in their society than ours does.

You should cite your translation. I looked it up and that is the ESV. I heard the ESV had a Calvinist bent to it, but I hadn't seen any verses that showed it until this one.

My guess is there is an ambiguity which the KJV and NKJV retain.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

And the NLT went with the nonCalvinist rendering:
8 And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered before the world was made.

But be that as it may, I would suspect some takers of the mark could still use such reasoning about poor evangelism methods.