What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?
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JEREMIAH 2 [31] O generation, see ye the word of the Lord. Have I been A WILDERNESS UNTO ISRAEL? a land of darkness? wherefore say my people, We are lords; we will come no more unto thee? [32] Can a maid forget her ornaments, OR A BRIDE HER ATTIRE? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.
Israel the bride
Israel the bride
Paul does use that phrase "like a thief in the night" in 1 Thess.5:2
"Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. The gathering of the church and the day of the Lord are closely linked in that, once the church is gathered, it begins the time of God's wrath, the day of the Lord, which will close on everyone remaining like a trap.
The phrases "come like a thief in the night" and "at an hour when you least expect" is saying the same thing.
Coming like a thief in the night would infer the idea of a thief who wants to be unnoticed so that he can break in without being caught and then make off with the goods, without being detected. This is the same meaning of "coming at an hour when you least expect."
In the Lord's example, if the house owner had known at what time the thief was going to break in, he could have just stayed up and waited for him. The meaning of the parable is that, since believers don't know at what time the Lord is going to come to gather us, then like the house own, we need to always be watching and ready so that the Lord doesn't take us by surprise. We don't want our lamps to be going out and have no extra oil when He comes. An example of not watching and being ready (no oil), is to wander away and go back to willfully living according to the sinful nature. For according to James 5:19-20, when a believer wanders away from the truth (stops having faith), while in that state the person is accumulating sin and is on his way to death.
"Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. The gathering of the church and the day of the Lord are closely linked in that, once the church is gathered, it begins the time of God's wrath, the day of the Lord, which will close on everyone remaining like a trap.
The phrases "come like a thief in the night" and "at an hour when you least expect" is saying the same thing.
Coming like a thief in the night would infer the idea of a thief who wants to be unnoticed so that he can break in without being caught and then make off with the goods, without being detected. This is the same meaning of "coming at an hour when you least expect."
In the Lord's example, if the house owner had known at what time the thief was going to break in, he could have just stayed up and waited for him. The meaning of the parable is that, since believers don't know at what time the Lord is going to come to gather us, then like the house own, we need to always be watching and ready so that the Lord doesn't take us by surprise. We don't want our lamps to be going out and have no extra oil when He comes. An example of not watching and being ready (no oil), is to wander away and go back to willfully living according to the sinful nature. For according to James 5:19-20, when a believer wanders away from the truth (stops having faith), while in that state the person is accumulating sin and is on his way to death.
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Hi John,
Did you mean that Israel is the wife of God the Father and the church is the bride of Christ.
Israel is always referred to as the "wife" of God. Where the church is the "bride," i.e. in the betrothal. The wedding of the Lamb will take place after His bride has been resurrected and caught up
Did you mean that Israel is the wife of God the Father and the church is the bride of Christ.
Israel is always referred to as the "wife" of God. Where the church is the "bride," i.e. in the betrothal. The wedding of the Lamb will take place after His bride has been resurrected and caught up
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Not convinced about that one. I believe that since the wedding of the Lamb takes place in heaven, so also will the wedding feast. The following supports this:
"I say to you that many will come from the east and the west to share the banquet with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven."
I'm not one who believes in that "the kingdom of heaven on earth" interpretation as some do.
"I say to you that many will come from the east and the west to share the banquet with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven."
I'm not one who believes in that "the kingdom of heaven on earth" interpretation as some do.
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That lie has been refuted already that Darby invented the Rapture.
When it comes to watching, I believe it is talking about being ready for Jesus to return, how and what are we to watch? I would say our own state, spiritually speaking. Many post-tribbers play the pin the tail on the antichrist game and the lets prepare for doomsday stock up on supplies game.
I came to my conclusion based on this verse, that it is our spiritual state the Lord is most concerned with:
1 John 3:3
And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself just as He is pure.
When it comes to watching, I believe it is talking about being ready for Jesus to return, how and what are we to watch? I would say our own state, spiritually speaking. Many post-tribbers play the pin the tail on the antichrist game and the lets prepare for doomsday stock up on supplies game.
I came to my conclusion based on this verse, that it is our spiritual state the Lord is most concerned with:
1 John 3:3
And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself just as He is pure.
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Can anyone provide me with a passage that teaches pre-trib, that shows a rapture/resurrection event occurring at some time before the parousia? or does anyone have any Biblical evidence for two parousia events or a parousia that lasts for years and years?
It doesn't make much sense to argue that a passage fits better with pre-trib if there is no scripture that teaches pre-trib in the first place.
It doesn't make much sense to argue that a passage fits better with pre-trib if there is no scripture that teaches pre-trib in the first place.
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Yeah, I agree! The reference to Darby and MacDonald, is just a created apologetic in an attempt to refute the promise of the Lord coming to get His church prior to the tribulation period.
It is really amazing that, besides all the scripture that we have to support a pre-trib gathering, that believers actually think that, the Lord would first put His bride through His wrath and then gather her afterwards. One of the major problems with the mid and post-trib view, is a lack of understanding of the severity and magnitude of that time of wrath. As I have posted many times, with just the accumulation of the first four seals and the 6th trumpet alone, (a fourth and a third, respectively), based on our currently population, that would be over 1.7 billion people killed within the first 3 1/2 years and that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor the results from the seven bowl judgments. Most people don't go any deeper than a cursory reading. Allow me to demonstrate:
First Trumpet
"The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up."
If you have a third of the earth and trees burned up, how many people will be caught in that third? For those who are post-trib, not that He couldn't, but is God going to make sure that the no one belonging to the church is within that third? Remeber, the ocean is not included in that. That's a lot of area and a lot of people.
Second Trumpet
"The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed."
This sounds like John is describing an asteroid coming through the earths atmosphere, which is why it would look like huge mountain and why is was all ablaze. Whatever the object is, it hits in one of the oceans which creates giant Tsunami's, which is why a third of all of the ships in that body of water are destroyed, which equal a third over all the earth. This would include, military ships, cruise liners, pleasure craft, oil tankers, etc. This would affect every type of ship whether out at sea, docked, or inbetween. Any ship that is caught in that body of water will be destroyed. To be more descriptive, what if say, the body of water was the Atlantic. Every sea creature and ship would be killed and destroyed equaling a third over all the earth.
How many people on those ships?
How many people will be living on the coasts of every shore touching that body of water when those Tsunami's hit?
Depending on how big, how fast and at what angle that object hits, will determine the size of the waves. How far inland will those 1000 plus foot waves go? This is what I mean when I tell people to look deeper into these plagues of wrath. If it was to hit in the Atlantic, you'd be talking about every city along the east coast of the United states, south America, Canada, Finland, as well as the west coast of Scotland, Ireland, Spain, Portugal and the entire west coast of Africa. I'm just setting the scene here.
Not that He couldn't, but is God also going to make sure that there will be no believers of the church living or present on any of those coastlines when it hits?
Once again, you see how ridiculous that is, for God to shift believers around the planet so that they are not on that third part of the earth or those trees that get burnt up and to make sure that there are no believers within the church living on any of those coastlines where those Tsunami's hit and also that there are no believers on any of the ships.
Wouldn't it be better to just remove the church from the earth as promised, so that the church is not even exposed God's wrath?
Third Trumpet
"The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water—the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter."
This object sounds to me like a comet hitting the atmosphere and exploding. Comets are made of debris and ice. While they are orbiting our sun, they are absorbing all types of radiation and retaining it. If a comet exploded in our atmosphere, all of that ice that has been absorbing all that radiation, would fall all over the earth, contaminating our rivers and fresh water, which is why the scripture says that many people die from drinking the water.
How many is many?
Since this is going to be contaminating a third of the rivers and springs of water, needless to say, that would affect a lot of people. They would die from the inside out from drinking radioactive water.
And these post-tribbers think that God, instead of catching up the church, is instead going to leave them on the earth to go through all of that. I'll do one more from the bowl judgments:
Fourth Bowl
"The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire. They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him."
This plague will allow the sun to scorch people with fire and sear them with intense heat! Where on earth can you go, except a cave to escape from that? And how long will that scorching heat last? How would God protect the church to keep them from the sun? How many are going to die from that excessive scorching heat? Not to mention, that in the previous bowls all of the ocean and fresh water will have been turned into literal blood. No drinking water, but lots of scorching heat!
This is why I always say that post-trib people need to do a deeper study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. It is just ridiculous to believe that God is going to protect His church during the time of these plagues of wrath, instead of gathering them from off the earth according to His promise.
Ok, I'm done ranting!
It is really amazing that, besides all the scripture that we have to support a pre-trib gathering, that believers actually think that, the Lord would first put His bride through His wrath and then gather her afterwards. One of the major problems with the mid and post-trib view, is a lack of understanding of the severity and magnitude of that time of wrath. As I have posted many times, with just the accumulation of the first four seals and the 6th trumpet alone, (a fourth and a third, respectively), based on our currently population, that would be over 1.7 billion people killed within the first 3 1/2 years and that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor the results from the seven bowl judgments. Most people don't go any deeper than a cursory reading. Allow me to demonstrate:
First Trumpet
"The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up."
If you have a third of the earth and trees burned up, how many people will be caught in that third? For those who are post-trib, not that He couldn't, but is God going to make sure that the no one belonging to the church is within that third? Remeber, the ocean is not included in that. That's a lot of area and a lot of people.
Second Trumpet
"The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed."
This sounds like John is describing an asteroid coming through the earths atmosphere, which is why it would look like huge mountain and why is was all ablaze. Whatever the object is, it hits in one of the oceans which creates giant Tsunami's, which is why a third of all of the ships in that body of water are destroyed, which equal a third over all the earth. This would include, military ships, cruise liners, pleasure craft, oil tankers, etc. This would affect every type of ship whether out at sea, docked, or inbetween. Any ship that is caught in that body of water will be destroyed. To be more descriptive, what if say, the body of water was the Atlantic. Every sea creature and ship would be killed and destroyed equaling a third over all the earth.
How many people on those ships?
How many people will be living on the coasts of every shore touching that body of water when those Tsunami's hit?
Depending on how big, how fast and at what angle that object hits, will determine the size of the waves. How far inland will those 1000 plus foot waves go? This is what I mean when I tell people to look deeper into these plagues of wrath. If it was to hit in the Atlantic, you'd be talking about every city along the east coast of the United states, south America, Canada, Finland, as well as the west coast of Scotland, Ireland, Spain, Portugal and the entire west coast of Africa. I'm just setting the scene here.
Not that He couldn't, but is God also going to make sure that there will be no believers of the church living or present on any of those coastlines when it hits?
Once again, you see how ridiculous that is, for God to shift believers around the planet so that they are not on that third part of the earth or those trees that get burnt up and to make sure that there are no believers within the church living on any of those coastlines where those Tsunami's hit and also that there are no believers on any of the ships.
Wouldn't it be better to just remove the church from the earth as promised, so that the church is not even exposed God's wrath?
Third Trumpet
"The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water—the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter."
This object sounds to me like a comet hitting the atmosphere and exploding. Comets are made of debris and ice. While they are orbiting our sun, they are absorbing all types of radiation and retaining it. If a comet exploded in our atmosphere, all of that ice that has been absorbing all that radiation, would fall all over the earth, contaminating our rivers and fresh water, which is why the scripture says that many people die from drinking the water.
How many is many?
Since this is going to be contaminating a third of the rivers and springs of water, needless to say, that would affect a lot of people. They would die from the inside out from drinking radioactive water.
And these post-tribbers think that God, instead of catching up the church, is instead going to leave them on the earth to go through all of that. I'll do one more from the bowl judgments:
Fourth Bowl
"The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire. They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him."
This plague will allow the sun to scorch people with fire and sear them with intense heat! Where on earth can you go, except a cave to escape from that? And how long will that scorching heat last? How would God protect the church to keep them from the sun? How many are going to die from that excessive scorching heat? Not to mention, that in the previous bowls all of the ocean and fresh water will have been turned into literal blood. No drinking water, but lots of scorching heat!
This is why I always say that post-trib people need to do a deeper study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. It is just ridiculous to believe that God is going to protect His church during the time of these plagues of wrath, instead of gathering them from off the earth according to His promise.
Ok, I'm done ranting!
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We've been giving you the reasons all along, but you don't accept them.
God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since His wrath in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, will affect the whole world, the Lord is going to remove His church prior to said wrath.
If you're looking for a scripture that a precise time for the gathering of the church, you are not going to find it. Likewise, you're not going to find a scripture directly saying that the church will be gathered after the tribulation.
If you and others can't connect the dots, then there is no sense to continue going over the reasons as to why.
The biggest reason for the gathering of the church prior to the tribulation, is that Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. And because of this, believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, because Jesus already did. Please read post #158 for the details on some of the plagues of wrath and the reason why the church cannot be here during that time.
As I always say, those who believe that the Lord is going to allow His bride to go through the time of His wrath, have no understanding of the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which make up the wrath of God.
God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since His wrath in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, will affect the whole world, the Lord is going to remove His church prior to said wrath.
If you're looking for a scripture that a precise time for the gathering of the church, you are not going to find it. Likewise, you're not going to find a scripture directly saying that the church will be gathered after the tribulation.
If you and others can't connect the dots, then there is no sense to continue going over the reasons as to why.
The biggest reason for the gathering of the church prior to the tribulation, is that Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. And because of this, believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, because Jesus already did. Please read post #158 for the details on some of the plagues of wrath and the reason why the church cannot be here during that time.
As I always say, those who believe that the Lord is going to allow His bride to go through the time of His wrath, have no understanding of the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which make up the wrath of God.
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1
- Show all