What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

The best proof for the pre-trib Rapture is that:

John 14:1-3 needs to be fulfilled, and this is only possible in the pre-trib model (If we are talking about premillennialism). If we are caught up at the second coming and then turn right back, John 14:1-3 was never fulfilled.

Wait a minute, before I address your question (and I can) you first have to tell me where the pretrib rapture occurs in what I posted from Matthew 24? Point it out without hip hoping to Matthew 25 the next chapter.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

God's wrath is God's anger. It's not just bad stuff happening. God is not angry with redeemed saints who are in right relationship with him.

The 'not appointed unto wrath' verse says but ye are not appointed unto wrath, but to our Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice the context is wrath versus obtaining salvation. It's not about going through tough times.

Do you believe that the tribulational saints are appointed unto wrath, and not appointed to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ?



So some will be destroyed and some will live. If a tribulational saint dies during these events, do you think that means God is angry at him or her? Does it mean that they are not saved through Jesus Christ?

This is supported by the fact that Jesus said, and I paraphrase "if those days had been allowed to go on any longer, no one on earth would be left alive."

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Do you think God is angry at the elect, for whose sake this verse implies the dead are shortened.



Where is your evidence for this? Are you familiar with Revelation 19 which announces the marriage supper right before the passage about the King of Kings and Lord of Lord, which many of us take to refer to the parousia. Why should I assume a pretrib scenario here that the passage does not state. That seems to be the whole 'proof' for pre-trib, assuming pretrib scenarios around Biblical passages.



I Thessalonians tells us that at the parousia the saints will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Where is the contradiction to post-trib here? You have to stretch the second coming out for seven years, or have two second comings with the rapture at the first one to make this work.



Show me the verses that put the tribulational saints through the wrath of God. Why wouldn't you believe they wouldn't be saved?
I Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Which category are the tribulational saints in, the 'appointed unto wrath' categry or the 'obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ' category?



Notice the order there in that verse you quote, II Thes. 2:1, I think, It says 'the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him". Why do you reverse the order? You have the gathering happening before the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Look at the previous chapter. It tells us that the church will receive rest when Jesus comes back to execute vengence on them that know not God. Pre-trib has the church already gone when that happens. Jesus comes back to execute vengence when He returns to be glorified in the saints. Pre-trib makes two times out of that, not at the same time, like the passage says. Chapter 1 describes this as happening on 'that day.' The same day is described in chapter 2.

There is no way to get any evidence for pre-trib out of II Thessalonians 2. Pre-tribbers assume pretrib and read the theory into the passage, in spite of what it says.


I agree. Compare to 'gather' Matthew 24.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



Do you have any Biblical evidence to split up these events? I have pointed out evidence against that idea. Do you believe in two parousias or one long seven-year second coming?



The wicked will be destroyed by the parousia of Christ (II Thes 2.) At the parousia, the saints will be raptured and resurrected (I Thes. 4.)



There is a logical problem there since the thousand year reign is after the tribulation in revelation, so, yes it does descend after the tribulation and not before it in the narrative of Revelation.



I do not recall anyone calling that a resurrection. I believe in the resurrection of the body. I don't call a disembodied state before the resurrection a 'resurrection' either, and I have opposed that idea on these forums.

Ahwatukee, you posted quite a bit, and I may respond later if the Lord permits. But again, I did not see you post any evidence for pretrib. I see you having an a priori assumption for pretrib, asserting it is true, and trying to argue that only pretrib will fit certain passages.

But that is not evidence for pretrib. What is the evidence fir the whole pretrib theory in the first place? Can you show me a scripture that says Jesus is coming back two more times? Canyou show me a sequence of events in scripture where the rapture is mentioned followed by tribulation then the second coming.

You arguments seem strained and tenuous. Why would you assume if most drinking water is unusable that God did not preserve the usable water or some of it for the saints.? Why would that be a reason for believing in pretrib when there is no evidence for it. I do not find any of your arguments for not believing in a more straightforward interpretation of II Thessalonians. Your objections about Mt. 24 are the same critiques of pretrib. That pretribbers explain with imminence and the disciples not knowing the day or the hour. Matthew 24 tells the disciples about waiting for the coming of the Son of Man. Why would He speak this day if there were a doctrine that the saints would be raptured before the coming of the Son of Man. Can you show me where scripture teaches pretrib, not assume pretrib and try to read scripture with a pretrib assumption?

That first one should be in the 'unexpected' category. What event are you talking about? Are you talking about the rapture or the coming of the Son of Man...or two things that occur at once.

Let's look at what the passage says.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So this is the event you are quoting Matthew 24 about? This event that happens after the tribulation. How is Matthew 24 supposed to support pre-trib, when it places the coming of the Son of man 'after the tribulation' (i.e. 'post trib)?

Why would Jesus want His disciples to be ready for the coming of the Son of Man if they were leaving seven years before it happened? If the coming of the Son of Man refers to the rapture, then Matthew 24:29-30
places it after the tribulation.

Can you show a single passage that lays out a sequence of events where the tribulation occurs before the rapture? The passage you are referring to shows the events you identify with the rapture happening after the tribulation, 'great tribulation', even (v. 21.)j

All I see from pre-tribbers is spinning a pre-trib story around passages that do not support it, which sometimes flat out contradict it.





All the apostolic churches hoped and expected that the Lord would come for His own during their lifetimes. Thus it was the Blessed Hope of the New Testament churches.


I do not disagree with you that the rapture happens at the time described here, but I notice you keep adding in the 'at the rapture' phrase in your own words in these passages. But where is there any evidence in here that this is talking about a pre-trib rapture? Imagining the rapture is pre-trib when you read verses about it does not prove pretrib.

Can anyone show a clear reference to a pre-trib rapture in any sequence of events presented in the New Testament? Can you show evidence for it int he book of Revelation, Paul's writings, the eschatological passages from Christ, or anywhere else?

Where in Revelation does it say the pre-trib rapture will occur? All I've read along these lines is a rather outlandish claim that John being told 'come up hither' is about the rapture of the church-- as allegorical interpretation any amil or postmil adherent might use, and not really consistent with a literal approach to eschatology.

Noah was delivered pretrib
Jesus specifically said BEFORE THE FLOOD.

You would n eed a post flood event.
All that haopened post flood was noah RETURNING.
exact fit for pretrib rapture.
The One taken verse is pretrib in context.
...and lines up with the 5 foolish taken just a few sentances later.
Btw what translation are you using?

5 wise taken you dummy.
The foolish stayed and got martyred

MATTHEW 25 [1] Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. [2] And FIVE OF THEM WERE WISE, and five were foolish. [3] They that were foolish took THEIR LAMPS, and took NO OIL with them: [4] But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

Verse 2...five were wise

PSALM 111 [10] The fear of the LORD is the beginning of WISDOM: a good understanding have all they that DO HIS COMMANDMENTS: his praise endureth for ever.

Wise? Do His commandments

EXODUS 39 [37] The pure candlestick, with the lamps thereof, even with the lamps to be set in order, and all the vessels thereof, and the OIL FOR LIGHT,

PROVERBS 6 [23] For THE COMMANDMENT IS A LAMP; and THE LAW IS LIGHT; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

Seems 5 virgins were not able to light their lamps. Why? They had no oil for light. The law is light. They werent keeping Gods law.

Revelation 14:12 (KJV)
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Well..seems those that were foolish are not Saints at all

Has nothing to do with any rapture

I would argue that the "rest" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7 is talking about the rest the saved are to obtain while ruling and reigning and enjoying the millennial kingdom which happens after the Second Coming.

Thats the BEST proof of a pre-trib rapture? Yikes!

JOHN 14 [1] Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. [2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Ya see what the scriptures say. HE WILL COME AGAIN. He doesnt say a word about going back to heaven with Him. He’s coming back to earth as He said He would.

REVELATION 21 [1] And I saw a NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.[2]And I John saw the holy city, NEW JERUSALEM, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.[3]And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, BEHOLD, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN, AND HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.[4]And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.[5]And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

The many mansions? Its the new Jerusalem that is brought to this earth. Its there we will DWELL with Him.

Paul writes of the Lord descending and the saints rising. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Ahwatukee, you posted quite a bit, and I may respond later if the Lord permits. But again, I did not see you post any evidence for pretrib. I see you having an a priori assumption for pretrib, asserting it is true, and trying to argue that only pretrib will fit certain passages.

But that is not evidence for pretrib. What is the evidence fir the whole pretrib theory in the first place? Can you show me a scripture that says Jesus is coming back two more times? Canyou show me a sequence of events in scripture where the rapture is mentioned followed by tribulation then the second coming.

You arguments seem strained and tenuous. Why would you assume if most drinking water is unusable that God did not preserve the usable water or some of it for the saints.?

Why would that be a reason for believing in pretrib when there is no evidence for it.

I do not find any of your arguments for not believing in a more straightforward interpretation of II Thessalonians. Your objections about Mt. 24 are the same critiques of pretrib. That pretribbers explain with imminence and the disciples not knowing the day or the hour. Matthew 24 tells the disciples about waiting for the coming of the Son of Man. Why would He speak this day if there were a doctrine that the saints would be raptured before the coming of the Son of Man. Can you show me where scripture teaches pretrib, not assume pretrib and try to read scripture with a pretrib assumption?

Matthew 24 tells the disciples about waiting for the coming of the Son of Man.

Thats the BEST proof of a pre-trib rapture? Yikes!

JOHN 14 [1] Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. [2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Ya see what the scriptures say. HE WILL COME AGAIN. He doesnt say a word about going back to heaven with Him. He’s coming back to earth as He said He would.

In fact we are not allowed to go to heaven (thats what Jesus said). Then Jesus said He would come again and that where He is we will be there also

JOHN 7 [33] Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.[34] Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and WHERE I AM, THITHER YE CANNOT COME.

REVELATION 21 [1] And I saw a NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.[2]And I John saw the holy city, NEW JERUSALEM, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.[3]And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, BEHOLD, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN, AND HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.[4]And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.[5]And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

The many mansions? Its the new Jerusalem that is brought to this earth. Its there we will DWELL with Him.

The new Jerusalem {many mansions} will be in Zion, in the midst of old Jerusalem. Its there He will “bring” us in the twinkling of an eye and we will DWELL with Him there. Not to heaven as the Rapturist claim. Just look at verse 7! Its when Jesus is dwelling in the new Jerusalem that He gathers His people. He will gather us in the twinkling of an eye.

Noah was delivered pretrib
Jesus specifically said BEFORE THE FLOOD.

You would n eed a post flood event.
All that haopened post flood was noah RETURNING.
exact fit for pretrib rapture.
The One taken verse is pretrib in context.
...and lines up with the 5 foolish taken just a few sentances later.
Btw what translation are you using?

Good day Wall,

I would suggest that you look very closely at John 14:1-3, which doesn't really need close observation, because its meaning is very clear.

Jesus starts off with "In My Father's house are many rooms.

The first thing that we can deduce from this, is that "the Father's house" can only be referring to heaven. Then Jesus says:

"If that wasn't true, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you."

So, Jesus said He was going to the Father's house to prepare places for us, which as we have seen, those places in the Father's house, can be referring only to heaven. Then Jesus says:

" And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there you may be also."

Since the Lord is going to prepare places for us in the Father's house, He says that He will come again so that we can be where He is, which again would be in the Father's house, which is in heaven.

How is it that then that you claim that "He doesn't say a word about going back to heaven with Him," when the scripture is crystal clear about this?



Wall, you need to logic here. That said, what would be the purpose for the Lord to go and prepare places in the Father's house for us, if we weren't allowed to go there? Your claim makes no sense.



You left out the most important part of the scripture above, Wall. Here is the full context:

"Simon Peter asked him, "Lord, where are you going?" Jesus replied, "Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later." - John 7:36

The reference to "But you will follow later" is referring to when the resurrection and catching away takes place when we are made immortal and glorified.



The new Jerusalem, new heaven and new earth, does not take place until after the tribulation and after the millennial kingdom. The church will have been caught up and taken to the Father's house to those places that Jesus prepared for us, prior to the tribulation period.



The same problem with the above is that, it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God, which we are not appointed to suffer. You guy's need to get this fact into your heads, that church is not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath. We therefore must be removed prior to the on-set of God's wrath.

First of all over 30 or 40 years I use to believe in the pretrib rapture taught Hal Lindsey and his ilk. I finally came to my senses by doing extensive study and changed my position according to Biblical facts.

Now, it is true that Jesus mentioned Noah at Matthew 24:37-39 but the point Jesus was making is that His coming and the world was clueless about it because they were "carousing" around having fun. So what about Noah? How was he and his delivered? Hebrews 11:7, "Noah being warned by God in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation/deliverance for his household." Was Noah literally taken away out of the water, no.

Look at 1 Peter 3:20 the last sentence, "in which a few, that is, eight persons, WERE BROUGHT SAFELY THROUGH THE WATER." And how about 2 Peter 2:5. that dismantles you position. "and did not spare the ancient world, but "PRESERVED" Noah, a preacher of righteousness with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly." The Greek word for preserved is "phulasso." It means to kept safe, under guard. In other words, God used the ark to protect Noah and his family.

They were not raptured from the flood and neither will we be rapture from the great tribulation. It does not make any sense at least to me that if we are pretribed raptured we will be having the marraige supper of the Lamb while all hell is breaking loose on earth.

So, here are two more questions for you and both questions back up what Jesus stated at Matthew 24. The Apostle John said the following at 1 John 2:18, "Children, it is the last hour and just as you heard that antichrist (singular) is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know this is the last hour." At Matthew 24:15 Jesus said, "Therefore when you see the Abomination of Desolation, run. That's the implication in the following verses.

So, why does John say (just like Jesus said) to be alert for the coming of the "singular" antichrist if were not going to be here because we were raptured?

Second question by the Apostle Paul at 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8, "This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. vs6, For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, vs7, AND TO GIVE RELIEF/REST TO YOU WHO ARE AFFLICTED, and to us as well (look at the words carefully) WHEN, (when do we get rest or relief according to the Apostle Paul?) when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, vs8, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."

I can tell you why? If you look at the context at John 13:36 Peter said to Jesus, "where are you going?" Jesus then at John 14:1 says, "Let your heart not be troubled etc." So the short answer is that Jesus is "REASSURING" His diciples because they were troubled by the depressing occurrences of what Jesus stated in John chapter 12, 13. John 13:33, John 12:12:32-33, and John 13:38 regarding Peter. In short, I don't see one bit of evidence that this is referring to the rapture. Your "reading" into the text/eisegesis ahwatukee.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Pre-tribbers invented the seven year U-Turn. Why would it take so long?

Speaking of U-Turns, those who hold to a post-trib interpretation, would have Jesus descending to the earth, calling up the church to meet Him in the air and then the church doing a U-Turn to come back down to the earth. With this interpretation, there is no way for the bride/church to attend the wedding of the Lamb as described in Rev.19:6-8 and no time to get our white horses to follow Christ out of heaven as described in verse 14. This view would also do away with Jesus' preparing places for us in the Father's house so that we could be where He is.

The pre-trib view has Jesus descending to the atmosphere and calling up the church to gather them and take them back to the Father's house in heaven to those places that He went to prepare for us. It also allows for us to receive our fine linen and be partakers of the wedding of the Lamb, as well as being in heaven in order to follow the Lord out of heaven.

There is plenty of evidence for the whole pre-trib scenario, which we have been continuing to provide for you, but you refuse to believe it.

The gathering of the church = Jesus descends to the air and calls up the dead and living and takes them back to the Father's house

The second coming = Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.

In between both of these events, the wrath of God will take place, which believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer and therefore must be removed prior to said wrath.

To the one saying are the tribulation saints then appointed to God's wrath? Not appointed to hell, but because they did not believe the Gospel, they are one of those people who are stuck here during the time of Jacob's trouble. This is why these people while they are saved and blessed for sacrificing their life for the word of God, they are going through that time period. Salvation is much more difficult then than it is now, and deception will be at an all time high during that time.