What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

[Wall]

The best proof for the pre-trib Rapture is that:

John 14:1-3 needs to be fulfilled, and this is only possible in the pre-trib model (If we are talking about premillennialism). If we are caught up at the second coming and then turn right back, John 14:1-3 was never fulfilled.

Thats the BEST proof of a pre-trib rapture? Yikes!

JOHN 14 [1] Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. [2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Ya see what the scriptures say. HE WILL COME AGAIN. He doesnt say a word about going back to heaven with Him. He’s coming back to earth as He said He would.

JOHN 7 [33] Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.[34] Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and WHERE I AM, THITHER YE CANNOT COME.

In fact we are not allowed to go to heaven (thats what Jesus said). Then Jesus said He would come again and that where He is we will be there also

REVELATION 21 [1] And I saw a NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.[2]And I John saw the holy city, NEW JERUSALEM, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.[3]And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, BEHOLD, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN, AND HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.[4]And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.[5]And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

The many mansions? Its the new Jerusalem that is brought to this earth. Its there we will DWELL with Him.

ZECH. 8 [1] Again the word of the Lord of hosts came to me, saying, [2] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury. [3] THUS SAITH THE LORD; I AM RETURNED UNTO ZION, AND WILL DWELL IN THE MIDST OF JERUSALEM: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain. [4] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age. [5] And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof. [6] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the Lord of hosts. [7] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I WILL SAVE MY PEOPLE FROM THE EAST COUNTRY, AND FROM THE WEST COUNTRY; [8] AND I WILL BRING THEM, AND THEY SHALL DWELL IN THE MIDST OF JERUSALEM: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

The new Jerusalem {many mansions} will be in Zion, in the midst of old Jerusalem. Its there He will “bring” us in the twinkling of an eye and we will DWELL with Him there. Not to heaven as the Rapturist claim. Just look at verse 7! Its when Jesus is dwelling in the new Jerusalem that He gathers His people. He will gather us in the twinkling of an eye.

 

[Absolutely]

Wait a minute, before I address your question (and I can) you first have to tell me where the pretrib rapture occurs in what I posted from Matthew 24? Point it out without hip hoping to Matthew 25 the next chapter.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Noah was delivered pretrib
Jesus specifically said BEFORE THE FLOOD.

You would n eed a post flood event.
All that haopened post flood was noah RETURNING.
exact fit for pretrib rapture.
The One taken verse is pretrib in context.
...and lines up with the 5 foolish taken just a few sentances later.
Btw what translation are you using?

 

[Absolutely]

God's wrath is God's anger. It's not just bad stuff happening. God is not angry with redeemed saints who are in right relationship with him.

The 'not appointed unto wrath' verse says but ye are not appointed unto wrath, but to our Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice the context is wrath versus obtaining salvation. It's not about going through tough times.

Do you believe that the tribulational saints are appointed unto wrath, and not appointed to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ?



So some will be destroyed and some will live. If a tribulational saint dies during these events, do you think that means God is angry at him or her? Does it mean that they are not saved through Jesus Christ?

This is supported by the fact that Jesus said, and I paraphrase "if those days had been allowed to go on any longer, no one on earth would be left alive."

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Do you think God is angry at the elect, for whose sake this verse implies the dead are shortened.



Where is your evidence for this? Are you familiar with Revelation 19 which announces the marriage supper right before the passage about the King of Kings and Lord of Lord, which many of us take to refer to the parousia. Why should I assume a pretrib scenario here that the passage does not state. That seems to be the whole 'proof' for pre-trib, assuming pretrib scenarios around Biblical passages.



I Thessalonians tells us that at the parousia the saints will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Where is the contradiction to post-trib here? You have to stretch the second coming out for seven years, or have two second comings with the rapture at the first one to make this work.



Show me the verses that put the tribulational saints through the wrath of God. Why wouldn't you believe they wouldn't be saved?
I Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Which category are the tribulational saints in, the 'appointed unto wrath' categry or the 'obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ' category?



Notice the order there in that verse you quote, II Thes. 2:1, I think, It says 'the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him". Why do you reverse the order? You have the gathering happening before the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Look at the previous chapter. It tells us that the church will receive rest when Jesus comes back to execute vengence on them that know not God. Pre-trib has the church already gone when that happens. Jesus comes back to execute vengence when He returns to be glorified in the saints. Pre-trib makes two times out of that, not at the same time, like the passage says. Chapter 1 describes this as happening on 'that day.' The same day is described in chapter 2.

There is no way to get any evidence for pre-trib out of II Thessalonians 2. Pre-tribbers assume pretrib and read the theory into the passage, in spite of what it says.


I agree. Compare to 'gather' Matthew 24.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



Do you have any Biblical evidence to split up these events? I have pointed out evidence against that idea. Do you believe in two parousias or one long seven-year second coming?



The wicked will be destroyed by the parousia of Christ (II Thes 2.) At the parousia, the saints will be raptured and resurrected (I Thes. 4.)



There is a logical problem there since the thousand year reign is after the tribulation in revelation, so, yes it does descend after the tribulation and not before it in the narrative of Revelation.



I do not recall anyone calling that a resurrection. I believe in the resurrection of the body. I don't call a disembodied state before the resurrection a 'resurrection' either, and I have opposed that idea on these forums.

You just quoted in mat where the elect are gathered by angel from heaven.

Lol that fits pretrib doctrine

 

[Absolutely]

Ahwatukee, you posted quite a bit, and I may respond later if the Lord permits. But again, I did not see you post any evidence for pretrib. I see you having an a priori assumption for pretrib, asserting it is true, and trying to argue that only pretrib will fit certain passages.

But that is not evidence for pretrib. What is the evidence fir the whole pretrib theory in the first place? Can you show me a scripture that says Jesus is coming back two more times? Canyou show me a sequence of events in scripture where the rapture is mentioned followed by tribulation then the second coming.

You arguments seem strained and tenuous. Why would you assume if most drinking water is unusable that God did not preserve the usable water or some of it for the saints.? Why would that be a reason for believing in pretrib when there is no evidence for it. I do not find any of your arguments for not believing in a more straightforward interpretation of II Thessalonians. Your objections about Mt. 24 are the same critiques of pretrib. That pretribbers explain with imminence and the disciples not knowing the day or the hour. Matthew 24 tells the disciples about waiting for the coming of the Son of Man. Why would He speak this day if there were a doctrine that the saints would be raptured before the coming of the Son of Man. Can you show me where scripture teaches pretrib, not assume pretrib and try to read scripture with a pretrib assumption?

Rev 14
Jesus appears in the clouds and harvests ripe fruit.
That event is DURING the gt.

Postrib rapture is impossible

That first one should be in the 'unexpected' category. What event are you talking about? Are you talking about the rapture or the coming of the Son of Man...or two things that occur at once.

Let's look at what the passage says.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So this is the event you are quoting Matthew 24 about? This event that happens after the tribulation. How is Matthew 24 supposed to support pre-trib, when it places the coming of the Son of man 'after the tribulation' (i.e. 'post trib)?

Why would Jesus want His disciples to be ready for the coming of the Son of Man if they were leaving seven years before it happened? If the coming of the Son of Man refers to the rapture, then Matthew 24:29-30
places it after the tribulation.

Can you show a single passage that lays out a sequence of events where the tribulation occurs before the rapture? The passage you are referring to shows the events you identify with the rapture happening after the tribulation, 'great tribulation', even (v. 21.)j

All I see from pre-tribbers is spinning a pre-trib story around passages that do not support it, which sometimes flat out contradict it.





All the apostolic churches hoped and expected that the Lord would come for His own during their lifetimes. Thus it was the Blessed Hope of the New Testament churches.


I do not disagree with you that the rapture happens at the time described here, but I notice you keep adding in the 'at the rapture' phrase in your own words in these passages. But where is there any evidence in here that this is talking about a pre-trib rapture? Imagining the rapture is pre-trib when you read verses about it does not prove pretrib.

The rapture verses are all peacetine setting.

Either Jesus is confused or he is speaking of 2 separate events.

You need a post trib destroyed planet,wartime setting rapture event.

The ONLY ONE you got (postrib) is in mat where the gathering is ANGELS not Jesus,FROM HEAVEN (supports pretrib rapture)

 

[Absolutely]

Can anyone show a clear reference to a pre-trib rapture in any sequence of events presented in the New Testament? Can you show evidence for it int he book of Revelation, Paul's writings, the eschatological passages from Christ, or anywhere else?

Where in Revelation does it say the pre-trib rapture will occur? All I've read along these lines is a rather outlandish claim that John being told 'come up hither' is about the rapture of the church-- as allegorical interpretation any amil or postmil adherent might use, and not really consistent with a literal approach to eschatology.

now factor in that the group before the throne in heaven is billions that got beheaded at the start of the trib.
It says "POWER WAS GIVEN TO THE AC TO OVERCOME THE SAINTS"
Then take a look at " every human on the planet worships the beast"(takes the mark)

Pretty hard to make that say,or look like the church is running from cave to cave chased by the ac for 7 years.

Then where ONLY the 144 k and the Jews are ushered into protection.

Postribs are imagining all that.

If you factor in the verses that destroy the postrib rapture doctrine,it is history

 

[Absolutely]

Noah was delivered pretrib
Jesus specifically said BEFORE THE FLOOD.

You would n eed a post flood event.
All that haopened post flood was noah RETURNING.
exact fit for pretrib rapture.
The One taken verse is pretrib in context.
...and lines up with the 5 foolish taken just a few sentances later.
Btw what translation are you using?

5 wise taken you dummy.
The foolish stayed and got martyred

 

[Wall]

5 wise taken you dummy.
The foolish stayed and got martyred

MATTHEW 25 [1] Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. [2] And FIVE OF THEM WERE WISE, and five were foolish. [3] They that were foolish took THEIR LAMPS, and took NO OIL with them: [4] But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

Verse 2...five were wise

PSALM 111 [10] The fear of the LORD is the beginning of WISDOM: a good understanding have all they that DO HIS COMMANDMENTS: his praise endureth for ever.

Wise? Do His commandments

EXODUS 39 [37] The pure candlestick, with the lamps thereof, even with the lamps to be set in order, and all the vessels thereof, and the OIL FOR LIGHT,

PROVERBS 6 [23] For THE COMMANDMENT IS A LAMP; and THE LAW IS LIGHT; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

Seems 5 virgins were not able to light their lamps. Why? They had no oil for light. The law is light. They werent keeping Gods law.

Revelation 14:12 (KJV)
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Well..seems those that were foolish are not Saints at all

Has nothing to do with any rapture

 

[Wall]

MATTHEW 25 [1] Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. [2] And FIVE OF THEM WERE WISE, and five were foolish. [3] They that were foolish took THEIR LAMPS, and took NO OIL with them: [4] But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

Verse 2...five were wise

PSALM 111 [10] The fear of the LORD is the beginning of WISDOM: a good understanding have all they that DO HIS COMMANDMENTS: his praise endureth for ever.

Wise? Do His commandments

EXODUS 39 [37] The pure candlestick, with the lamps thereof, even with the lamps to be set in order, and all the vessels thereof, and the OIL FOR LIGHT,

PROVERBS 6 [23] For THE COMMANDMENT IS A LAMP; and THE LAW IS LIGHT; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

Seems 5 virgins were not able to light their lamps. Why? They had no oil for light. The law is light. They werent keeping Gods law.

Revelation 14:12 (KJV)
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Well..seems those that were foolish are not Saints at all

Has nothing to do with any rapture

At least the "rapture" that you preach where His people flit of to heaven. Aint gonna happen

 

[Ahwatukee]

I would argue that the "rest" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7 is talking about the rest the saved are to obtain while ruling and reigning and enjoying the millennial kingdom which happens after the Second Coming.

Good day TooFast,

"All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.

In the scripture above it is said that God is going to pay back trouble to those who troubled the Thessalonians, then Paul includes himself and those believers who are with him as those who are going to be payed back as well. Then he says, "this will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven. Therefore, Paul and those with him are included. And I would also include all Christians throughout the entire church age who have suffered trouble and persecution.

My purpose for citing this, is because Presidente attempted to use that scripture as proof of a post-trib gathering of the church, which it does not. The meaning for the Thessalonians, Paul and those with him, is that God will avenge them, which will happen when Jesus is revealed from heaven, which didn't happen in their time and which is still future. This scripture does not support a post-trib event.


Blessing in Christ!

 

[TooFastTurtle]

Thats the BEST proof of a pre-trib rapture? Yikes!

JOHN 14 [1] Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. [2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Ya see what the scriptures say. HE WILL COME AGAIN. He doesnt say a word about going back to heaven with Him. He’s coming back to earth as He said He would.

It says it right there that we are going to heaven with Jesus, He is going to prepare a place for us, where did He go? Heaven. He will come again, and receive us unto Himself, that is the catching up of the bride of Christ, and He is taking us to the Father's house, which is in heaven.

REVELATION 21 [1] And I saw a NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.[2]And I John saw the holy city, NEW JERUSALEM, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.[3]And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, BEHOLD, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN, AND HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.[4]And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.[5]And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

The many mansions? Its the new Jerusalem that is brought to this earth. Its there we will DWELL with Him.

You are mistaken about the timing, the New Jerusalem does not descend when Jesus returns. You are in Revelation 21, which happens after the millennium that is mentioned in Revelation 20.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Paul writes of the Lord descending and the saints rising. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Evidently you failed to notice (1) that the Lord meets the saints in the air and (2) that all this happens in the twinkling of an eye (in a split second).

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible [THE RESURRECTION], and we shall be changed [THE RAPTURE]. (1 Cor 15:51,52)

This in itself PROVES that the Resurrection/Rapture has absolutely nothing to do with the Second Coming. But Revelation 19 makes it perfectly clear that Christ will come WITH His saints and angels from Heaven for the battle of Armageddon, following which He will establish His Millennial Kingdom on earth. And all that does not happen within seconds. So how could He possibly come from Heaven with His saints if He had not taken them to Heaven previously at the Rapture (which occurred within less than a second)?

And to mockingly speak of U-turns shows a lack of understanding of the whole subject.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Ahwatukee, you posted quite a bit, and I may respond later if the Lord permits. But again, I did not see you post any evidence for pretrib. I see you having an a priori assumption for pretrib, asserting it is true, and trying to argue that only pretrib will fit certain passages.

But that is not evidence for pretrib. What is the evidence fir the whole pretrib theory in the first place? Can you show me a scripture that says Jesus is coming back two more times? Canyou show me a sequence of events in scripture where the rapture is mentioned followed by tribulation then the second coming.

First of all, let's please drop the "Jesus coming back two times" claim. I have repeatedly told people that the events of the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth, as being separate events.

When the Lord descends from heaven to gather the church, He is not returning to the earth at that time, but only to call up the church to meet Him in the air, where at which time He will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us in fulfillment of John 14:1-3. The post-trib scenario leaves no room for this promise to be fulfilled.

I also told you and others that the bride/church is already seen in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb receiving her fine linen white and clean. Then in verse 14 it shows the bride/church following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses to engage the beast and the nations gathered at Armageddon. Suffice to say, in order to attend the wedding of the Lamb in heaven and to follow the Lord out of heaven, one would already have to be in heaven. The post-trib scenario leaves no room for this.

I have also repeatedly proclaimed that believers in Christ cannot and will not go through the wrath of God, which will be in operation during that entire seven years right up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. We won't go through the time of God's wrath any more than Jesus would and that because Jesus already satisfied it for all believers. When we believed, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God. For those who continue in unbelief, God's wrath remains on them.

You arguments seem strained and tenuous. Why would you assume if most drinking water is unusable that God did not preserve the usable water or some of it for the saints.?

Your question was regarding the tribulation saints being exposed to God's wrath, which I demonstrated when it states regarding them "Never again will they hunger, and never will they thirst; nor will the sun beat down upon them, nor any scorching heat," which are all indicative of the plagues of wrath during that time period. I cannot help it if you will not or cannot connect the dots. In short, it shows that they will be affected by those plagues of wrath. Anyone on the earth during the time of God's wrath will be exposed to it.

Why would that be a reason for believing in pretrib when there is no evidence for it.

That had nothing to do with pre-trib, but was a separate issue that you brought up. I wasn't using it to prove pre-trib, but only to answer your question. And no of what I have been telling you has been strained. On the contrary, as soon as I read your claims, I already have the answer for them. It is only by your own assumption and that to discredit what I am teaching that you make this claim. I am perfectly comfortable and adamant with all of my scriptural claims.

I do not find any of your arguments for not believing in a more straightforward interpretation of II Thessalonians. Your objections about Mt. 24 are the same critiques of pretrib. That pretribbers explain with imminence and the disciples not knowing the day or the hour. Matthew 24 tells the disciples about waiting for the coming of the Son of Man. Why would He speak this day if there were a doctrine that the saints would be raptured before the coming of the Son of Man. Can you show me where scripture teaches pretrib, not assume pretrib and try to read scripture with a pretrib assumption?

If you haven't read my three part response, you need to go back and read them, because I answered all of your concerns. I suppose that you and those who have the church going through God's wrath will just have to wait and find out. And the proof will be when either you are caught up yourself or if you remain here and see the church removed from the earth. Then you will know what I already know.

Matthew 24 tells the disciples about waiting for the coming of the Son of Man.

Who else would the Lord address, but the disciples and all believers? He is certainly not addressing unbelievers. The Lord knew that all of this information would be written in His word. For example, when He says to His disciples "So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation," was the Lord speaking to them directly about seeing the abomination standing in the holy place? No! For they have long since died and that event has yet to take place. So, though He said "when you see" He was obviously not speaking to them, but to those who would be reading about and more specifically to those would be on the earth when that even takes place. In other words, it was told to the disciples and written for the benefit of those would be living during the time of that event. And this can be applied to many things in scripture.

Now, back to the pre-trib issue.

The Church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath because Jesus already suffered it on behalf of every believer and therefore the church cannot and will not cross that line into God's time of wrath below. This is the main premise for the pre-trib gathering.

| =======================================W R A T H OF G O D ==================================| Jesus returns to end the age
| ==================== S E A L S ============ T R U M P E T S ============= B O W L S ==============|

 

[Ahwatukee]

Thats the BEST proof of a pre-trib rapture? Yikes!

JOHN 14 [1] Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. [2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Ya see what the scriptures say. HE WILL COME AGAIN. He doesnt say a word about going back to heaven with Him. He’s coming back to earth as He said He would.

Good day Wall,

I would suggest that you look very closely at John 14:1-3, which doesn't really need close observation, because its meaning is very clear.

Jesus starts off with "In My Father's house are many rooms.

The first thing that we can deduce from this, is that "the Father's house" can only be referring to heaven. Then Jesus says:

"If that wasn't true, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you."

So, Jesus said He was going to the Father's house to prepare places for us, which as we have seen, those places in the Father's house, can be referring only to heaven. Then Jesus says:

" And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there you may be also."

Since the Lord is going to prepare places for us in the Father's house, He says that He will come again so that we can be where He is, which again would be in the Father's house, which is in heaven.

How is it that then that you claim that "He doesn't say a word about going back to heaven with Him," when the scripture is crystal clear about this?

In fact we are not allowed to go to heaven (thats what Jesus said). Then Jesus said He would come again and that where He is we will be there also

Wall, you need to logic here. That said, what would be the purpose for the Lord to go and prepare places in the Father's house for us, if we weren't allowed to go there? Your claim makes no sense.

JOHN 7 [33] Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.[34] Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and WHERE I AM, THITHER YE CANNOT COME.

You left out the most important part of the scripture above, Wall. Here is the full context:

"Simon Peter asked him, "Lord, where are you going?" Jesus replied, "Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later." - John 7:36

The reference to "But you will follow later" is referring to when the resurrection and catching away takes place when we are made immortal and glorified.

REVELATION 21 [1] And I saw a NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.[2]And I John saw the holy city, NEW JERUSALEM, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.[3]And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, BEHOLD, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN, AND HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.[4]And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.[5]And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

The many mansions? Its the new Jerusalem that is brought to this earth. Its there we will DWELL with Him.

The new Jerusalem, new heaven and new earth, does not take place until after the tribulation and after the millennial kingdom. The church will have been caught up and taken to the Father's house to those places that Jesus prepared for us, prior to the tribulation period.

The new Jerusalem {many mansions} will be in Zion, in the midst of old Jerusalem. Its there He will “bring” us in the twinkling of an eye and we will DWELL with Him there. Not to heaven as the Rapturist claim. Just look at verse 7! Its when Jesus is dwelling in the new Jerusalem that He gathers His people. He will gather us in the twinkling of an eye.

The same problem with the above is that, it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God, which we are not appointed to suffer. You guy's need to get this fact into your heads, that church is not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath. We therefore must be removed prior to the on-set of God's wrath.

 

[bluto]

Noah was delivered pretrib
Jesus specifically said BEFORE THE FLOOD.

You would n eed a post flood event.
All that haopened post flood was noah RETURNING.
exact fit for pretrib rapture.
The One taken verse is pretrib in context.
...and lines up with the 5 foolish taken just a few sentances later.
Btw what translation are you using?

First of all over 30 or 40 years I use to believe in the pretrib rapture taught Hal Lindsey and his ilk. I finally came to my senses by doing extensive study and changed my position according to Biblical facts.

Now, it is true that Jesus mentioned Noah at Matthew 24:37-39 but the point Jesus was making is that His coming and the world was clueless about it because they were "carousing" around having fun. So what about Noah? How was he and his delivered? Hebrews 11:7, "Noah being warned by God in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation/deliverance for his household." Was Noah literally taken away out of the water, no.

Look at 1 Peter 3:20 the last sentence, "in which a few, that is, eight persons, WERE BROUGHT SAFELY THROUGH THE WATER." And how about 2 Peter 2:5. that dismantels you position. "and did not spare the ancient world, but "PRESERVED" Noah, a preacher of righteousness with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly." The Greek word for preserved is "phulasso." It means to kept safe, under guard. In other words, God used the ark to protect Noah and his family.

They were not raptured from the flood and neither will we be rapture from the great tribulation. It does not make any sense at least to me that if we are pretribed raptured we will be having the marraige supper of the Lamb while all hell is breaking loose on earth.

So, here are two more questions for you and both questions back up what Jesus stated at Matthew 24. The Apostle John said the following at 1 John 2:18, "Children, it is the last hour and just as you heard that antichrist (singular) is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know this is the last hour." At Matthew 24:15 Jesus said, "Therefore when you see the Abomination of Desolation, run. That's the implication in the following verses.

So, why does John say (just like Jesus said) to be alert for the coming of the "singular" antichrist if were not going to be here because we were raptured? Second question by the Apostle Paul at 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8, "This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. vs6, For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, vs7, AND TO GIVE RELIEF/REST TO YOU WHO ARE AFFLICTED, and to us as well (look at the words carefully) WHEN, (when to we get rest or relief according to the Apostle Paul?) when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, vs8, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."

Please read vs 9-12 and tell me where there is a rapture before all of this takes place? Now, let me say nobody in their right mind wants to go through the great tribualtion. The point is the fact that Jesus Christ is coming for His church and we should all be about the Lord's work in the meantime.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[bluto]

Good day Wall,

I would suggest that you look very closely at John 14:1-3, which doesn't really need close observation, because its meaning is very clear.

Jesus starts off with "In My Father's house are many rooms.

The first thing that we can deduce from this, is that "the Father's house" can only be referring to heaven. Then Jesus says:

"If that wasn't true, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you."

So, Jesus said He was going to the Father's house to prepare places for us, which as we have seen, those places in the Father's house, can be referring only to heaven. Then Jesus says:

" And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there you may be also."

Since the Lord is going to prepare places for us in the Father's house, He says that He will come again so that we can be where He is, which again would be in the Father's house, which is in heaven.

How is it that then that you claim that "He doesn't say a word about going back to heaven with Him," when the scripture is crystal clear about this?



Wall, you need to logic here. That said, what would be the purpose for the Lord to go and prepare places in the Father's house for us, if we weren't allowed to go there? Your claim makes no sense.



You left out the most important part of the scripture above, Wall. Here is the full context:

"Simon Peter asked him, "Lord, where are you going?" Jesus replied, "Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later." - John 7:36

The reference to "But you will follow later" is referring to when the resurrection and catching away takes place when we are made immortal and glorified.



The new Jerusalem, new heaven and new earth, does not take place until after the tribulation and after the millennial kingdom. The church will have been caught up and taken to the Father's house to those places that Jesus prepared for us, prior to the tribulation period.



The same problem with the above is that, it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God, which we are not appointed to suffer. You guy's need to get this fact into your heads, that church is not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath. We therefore must be removed prior to the on-set of God's wrath.

I can tell you why? If you look at the context at John 13:36 Peter said to Jesus, "where are you going?" Jesus then at John 14:1 says, "Let your heart not be troubled etc." So the short answer is that Jesus is "REASSURING" His diciples because they were troubled by the depressing occurrences of what Jesus stated in John chapter 12, 13. John 13:33, John 12:12:32-33, and John 13:38 regarding Peter. In short, I don't see one bit of evidence that this is referring to the rapture. Your "reading" into the text/eisegesis ahwatukee.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Ahwatukee]

First of all over 30 or 40 years I use to believe in the pretrib rapture taught Hal Lindsey and his ilk. I finally came to my senses by doing extensive study and changed my position according to Biblical facts.

Now, it is true that Jesus mentioned Noah at Matthew 24:37-39 but the point Jesus was making is that His coming and the world was clueless about it because they were "carousing" around having fun. So what about Noah? How was he and his delivered? Hebrews 11:7, "Noah being warned by God in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation/deliverance for his household." Was Noah literally taken away out of the water, no.

Look at 1 Peter 3:20 the last sentence, "in which a few, that is, eight persons, WERE BROUGHT SAFELY THROUGH THE WATER." And how about 2 Peter 2:5. that dismantles you position. "and did not spare the ancient world, but "PRESERVED" Noah, a preacher of righteousness with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly." The Greek word for preserved is "phulasso." It means to kept safe, under guard. In other words, God used the ark to protect Noah and his family.

They were not raptured from the flood and neither will we be rapture from the great tribulation. It does not make any sense at least to me that if we are pretribed raptured we will be having the marraige supper of the Lamb while all hell is breaking loose on earth.

Good day Bluto,

You are correct in that, Noah was not removed from the earth and that because if he had and all on the ark had been, there would be no one to repopulate the earth. Likewise, Lot was allowed to escape to a small town out of the area and then God destroyed Sodom, Gomorrah and the surrounding cities. When the wrath of God comes via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, it will come upon the whole entire world. Unlike Noah and Lot, there will be no ark to get on and no city to flee to. This is where the Lord is going to keep His promise and remove believers from the earth so that we won't be exposed to those coming plagues of wrath.

Just because God did things a certain way in the past, doesn't mean that He is going to protect in the same way, nor is He restricted protecting believers in a different manner.

So, here are two more questions for you and both questions back up what Jesus stated at Matthew 24. The Apostle John said the following at 1 John 2:18, "Children, it is the last hour and just as you heard that antichrist (singular) is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know this is the last hour." At Matthew 24:15 Jesus said, "Therefore when you see the Abomination of Desolation, run. That's the implication in the following verses.

So, why does John say (just like Jesus said) to be alert for the coming of the "singular" antichrist if were not going to be here because we were raptured?

"Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour."

All John is saying here is that they have heard that the antichrist is coming, which is still future. The many antichrists are types of antichrists which is anyone who denies that Jesus is the Messiah.

Regarding "it is the last hour," no one, not even the apostles knew the time that the Lord would come to get His church, because His appearing has always been and continues to be imminent. So, here we are 1900 years later and it is still the "last hour."

Second question by the Apostle Paul at 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8, "This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. vs6, For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, vs7, AND TO GIVE RELIEF/REST TO YOU WHO ARE AFFLICTED, and to us as well (look at the words carefully) WHEN, (when do we get rest or relief according to the Apostle Paul?) when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, vs8, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."

Regarding the above, you made the same error that presidente did in a previous post in attempting to use the above scripture as proof that the gathering of the church will take place post-trib. I would urge you to take your own advice and "look at the words carefully" because Paul includes himself and those believers with him by saying "and us as well," as those who would receive relief from their affliction and this when Jesus is revealed from heaven. Since Paul, those with him and the Thessalonians, have all died and the Lord has yet to be revealed from heaven, then it could not be referring to them being around to see it. Simply, how could the Thessalonians, Paul and those with him, receive relief from those who persecute them, when they have long since been dead and Jesus has yet to be revealed from heaven? The meaning, not only for them and Paul, is that when the Lord returns to the earth, all believers who have suffered persecution throughout the entire church period will be avenged by the Lord upon those last day people who persecute the righteous. Consider what the fifth seal saints have to say regarding this:

================================================================
They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

Blessings in Christ!

 

[Ahwatukee]

I can tell you why? If you look at the context at John 13:36 Peter said to Jesus, "where are you going?" Jesus then at John 14:1 says, "Let your heart not be troubled etc." So the short answer is that Jesus is "REASSURING" His diciples because they were troubled by the depressing occurrences of what Jesus stated in John chapter 12, 13. John 13:33, John 12:12:32-33, and John 13:38 regarding Peter. In short, I don't see one bit of evidence that this is referring to the rapture. Your "reading" into the text/eisegesis ahwatukee.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

First, I don't read anything into scripture, but include all scriptures regarding all Biblical subjects. I'm not concerned with supporting my own beliefs, but I am zealous for the truth and accuracy of God's word.

Regarding "you will follow later" you only have two choices of what Jesus was speaking of 1) referring to when believers die and their spirits depart and go to be in the Lord's presence or 2) that the Lord was speaking about the disciples and all believers following the Lord later in their immortal and glorified bodies. My belief is the latter, because that is the state Jesus was in when He returned to the Father, i.e. in an immortal and glorified body. "you will follow later" means that you will also be resurrected immortal and glorified which will take place later, the later being a group event.

The reason that you don't see one bit of evidence, is because you don't want to. It would mean that you were wrong when you changed your understanding of this event.

When I was first called by the Lord at 14, I was immediately drawn to end-time events and have been studying it ever since. That said, I have never changed my understanding of when the church is going to be gathered in relation to God's coming wrath, because the Holy Spirit does not change His mind regarding His teaching of the word of God.

Putting all of the other scriptures aside, those who have the church being gathered when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, have one big glaring problem, which is that the church cannot and will not go through God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment, which will last until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. For we are not suffer God's wrath.

As I continue to teach, the underlying principle is that Jesus took upon himself the wrath of God that all believers deserve, satisfying it completely. When we became believers, we were credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. And since the wrath of God is going to be coming upon the whole entire world, then the church will be removed prior to its on-set, which begins with the opening of the first seal. This is also why we don't see the word "church" after the end of Revelation chapter 3. But prior to that it was used 19 times and then disappears. The church is never mentioned in the narrative of God's wrath within the book of Revelation. In relation to this, God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since these plagues of wrath will affect the entire world, then the church cannot be her to be exposed to it.

God is not going to protect us during His wrath, but is going to take us out of it before it starts.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

To the one saying are the tribulation saints then appointed to God's wrath? Not appointed to hell, but because they did not believe the Gospel, they are one of those people who are stuck here during the time of Jacob's trouble. This is why these people while they are saved and blessed for sacrificing their life for the word of God, they are going through that time period. Salvation is much more difficult then than it is now, and deception will be at an all time high during that time.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Pre-tribbers invented the seven year U-Turn. Why would it take so long?

Speaking of U-Turns, those who hold to a post-trib interpretation, would have Jesus descending to the earth, calling up the church to meet Him in the air and then the church doing a U-Turn to come back down to the earth. With this interpretation, there is no way for the bride/church to attend the wedding of the Lamb as described in Rev.19:6-8 and no time to get our white horses to follow Christ out of heaven as described in verse 14. This view would also do away with Jesus' preparing places for us in the Father's house so that we could be where He is.

The pre-trib view has Jesus descending to the atmosphere and calling up the church to gather them and take them back to the Father's house in heaven to those places that He went to prepare for us. It also allows for us to receive our fine linen and be partakers of the wedding of the Lamb, as well as being in heaven in order to follow the Lord out of heaven.

Paul writes of the Lord descending and the saints rising.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Which way does the Lord Jesus go in this verse?

Read what the angels said in Acts 1

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

When Jesus ascended, did He ascend, and descend again, and ascend again seven years later? No. He ascended. He will come back the same way He went up.

Where is the evidence for the whole pre-trib scenario in the first place? What is the justification for reading it into passages like this? I Corinthians 15 says they that are His will be made alive at His coming/parousia. It does not say seven years before His coming. It doesn't say at Jesus' third coming. It does not say that His coming will take seven years. I Thessalonians 4 also uses the word 'parousia.' The wicked on is destroyed at the brightness of Jesus' parousia.

Where is the justification for multiple parousia? Where is the justification for pre-trib at all from the Bible? Why isn't there a pre-trib rapture mentioned in Revelation? Why is it inconsisted with Matthew 24 which has the sign of the coming of the Son of Man after the tribulation?

There is plenty of evidence for the whole pre-trib scenario, which we have been continuing to provide for you, but you refuse to believe it.

The gathering of the church = Jesus descends to the air and calls up the dead and living and takes them back to the Father's house

The second coming = Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.

In between both of these events, the wrath of God will take place, which believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer and therefore must be removed prior to said wrath.

 

[Ahwatukee]

To the one saying are the tribulation saints then appointed to God's wrath? Not appointed to hell, but because they did not believe the Gospel, they are one of those people who are stuck here during the time of Jacob's trouble. This is why these people while they are saved and blessed for sacrificing their life for the word of God, they are going through that time period. Salvation is much more difficult then than it is now, and deception will be at an all time high during that time.

Agreed! The great tribulation saints are not appointed to Hell, but will be exposed to the plagues of wrath, simply because they will be on the earth, which is why Jesus continually warns believers to be watching and ready so that this day does not close on us like a trap.

Paul goes on to say in opposition to those who will not escape that destruction, that believers are not in darkness so that this day should take us by surprise. The only way that it would not take us by surprise is if we are watching and ready, living faithful lives and always anticipating the Lord's appearing in the midst of all that all we do in our lives.

I think that it is a lack of faith and a slap in the face to the Lord, for those who believe that He is going to first send His bride through His wrath and then gather whoever is left and there wouldn't be many. It means that they do not recognize that Jesus took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves. Believers have been seated in heavenly places with Christ, which means that there is a place in heaven reserved for each of us and dwelling places prepared for us. Yet, these people diminish what we have inherited in Christ, resigning us to the same wrath that the wicked are destined for, not understanding the severity and magnitude of said wrawth. That would be the equivalent of God not prompting Noah to build and ark and destroying him and his family along with the wicked in the flood. Or destroying Sodom and Gomorrah without first getting Lot out.

God does not punish the righteous with the wicked!