sabbath

As an ex-Sabbathkeeper I strongly suggest evaluating Sabbathkeepers and their groups very carefully. I am pretty confident you will find the vast majority are loony, paranoid isolationists who claim they have "the truth" and others do not.

Most think that others are (or will be) under the Mark of the Beast.

Many deny core Christian teachings like the Trinity.

A few groups are not like this, including some Messianic Jews (not all), Jews for Jesus, and Seventh Day Baptists.

I don't believe it is possible to be involved with Christ, to give our life to Christ, and deny that the Father blessed one day in the week for us to worship. Acknowledging God, and to worship is basic to our life and morals. It cannot be done if it wold be required that you may not acknowledge such as that time is put into weeks, or to deny time as so many use Col. 2: 16 and 17 to do.

Don't you think it is very strange that any time anyone decides to listen as the Lord tells them of His blessing of Saturday is labeled as "Hebrew Roots". I don't see what obeying and listening to scripture has to do with a religious sect.

I also do not find that because Christ is in the order of Melchizedek we should not read about the shadow of Christ was be studying the Levitical priesthood. Christ was both a ruler and priest as Melchizedek was, we are told that.

Also, the ten commandments are simply telling us of ways that love is practiced. To deny them is to deny love, and all commandments cam be summed up in love.

God gave such as fleshly circumcision and diet that consists of food that was clean and contained no garbage, these were to help the people understand God. People used the fleshly rites as obeying God, and they were only a reminder to obedience. Circumcision was a sign of belonging to God, and now we are to belong to God without the fleshly needs. Diet was to teach to only let clean things in people, not such as hate that is not clean. We are to do this, but understand that the fleshly reminders are not true obedience. This is not true of taking a day in a week to worship God. It is not a reminder of true worship like diet and circumcision is, it is done in spirit and truth.

A judaizer is someone who uses the fleshly commandments to obey the Lord and that is not and never was true obedience. It is not someone who listens to the Lord as people seem to think. Worship of the Lord is NOT a fleshly commandment.

The group I belong to is a "group" that studies scripture and worships the Lord. The Lord tells us in scripture about the Holy Spirit, Christ, and God the Father and i believe scripture. I feel certain that God inspired some writing that over the years man has denied. And I believe what scripture tells us about Paul. God used his training as a rabbi priest, he was hard to understand and is often misunderstood. I pray about my understanding of him.

Why just the Sabbath? Should all our farmers observe the Sabbath rest on the land? Should we have the Year of Jubilee where all debts are forgiven and land and rightful person gets it back. I am not being dopey but there is so much that is all connected to single out this or that to follow. The Lord said worship would not be done here or there but it was to be done in spirit. He never singled out Jerusalem to face or make pilgrimage to or other special days. If the Son sets you free you are free indeed.

Notice these responses.

One, I never claimed all that observe the Sabbath, festivals or clean meat laws as a matter of preference are "Hebrew Roots". I mentioned other groups...Seventh Day Adventists, Messianic Jews, Seventh Day Baptists, Jews for Jesus, and I will add Armstrongites. So, I didn't use the phrase "Hebrew Roots" to describe them all.

Two, I don't have issues with individuals who peacefully observe the Sabbath, festivals, or clean meat laws without claiming others must do the same thing. Jews for Jesus and Seventh Day Baptists are definitely in this camp. Some Messianic Jews are as well.

Three, the definition of a Judaizer is provided by Paul himself in Galatians 2.

14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

It is claiming that Gentiles must live like Jews. And, within the book of Galatians, he addresses how Judaizers were requiring Gentiles to live like Jews. One aspect was physical circumcision. Days were also mentioned.

Now, some Judaizers try to claim that these days were not related to the Mosaic Law, but then how do they get around the context, and how do they get around Colossians 2:16-17?

By the way, Judaizers were ever-present in Paul's life, coming around like mongrel dogs attempting to transform Christianity into an observance of the Mosaic Law.

Four, notice that the individual does in fact claim that there are writings outside of the Bible which are inspired, and have failed to be acknowledged as such the the Church. This is one of the characteristics of modern-day Judaizers.

The typical peripheral issues with Judaizers are : 1) a denial of the full deity of Jesus Christ 2) a denial of the Triune nature of God 3) a denial of the writings of Paul 4) an acceptance of extra-biblical sources of authority such as the Apocrypha or other writings of Jews 5) acceptance of the writings of some "prophet", "prophetess", or at least, his interpretation of Scripture as a sort of "infallible interpreter"

Fifth, notice the first paragraph. In essence, there is a denial of non-Sabbathkeeping Christians. This is a hallmark of Judaizers, with few exceptions. For instance, the SDAs believe there are non-Adventist Christians (although they allow abortion and don't believe in the biblical Trinity). This individual says:

I don't believe it is possible to be involved with Christ, to give our life to Christ, and deny that the Father blessed one day in the week for us to worship. Acknowledging God, and to worship is basic to our life and morals. It cannot be done if it wold be required that you may not acknowledge such as that time is put into weeks, or to deny time as so many use Col. 2: 16 and 17 to do.

So, there is no room in this person's belief system for a Christian who does not observe the Sabbath.

By the way, I would ask blk if he/she observes the Sabbath, annual festivals, and New Moons. If not, then how does he/she view Colossians 2:16-17?

The cultic Judaizer group I belonged to...their claim was that the true church (them) observed the Sabbath and festivals, but not New Moons. They used the verse to prove the Sabbath and festivals part, but ignored the New Moons part. I can remember as a young cultic member asking why New Moons weren't observed. The pastor, who is now one of the heads of a cultic offshoot, didn't answer the question. Back then I was dumb enough to simply trust in his authority. Now I realize he didn't have a good answer.

And, if you examine the doctrines of Judaizers, you will find that they believe similar, inconsistent things in the effort to support their belief system. They have built a patchwork quilt of observances that they demand others must perform, yet they have not carefully examined their own belief system for consistency.

It's pretty funny when your eyes are opened to it, except for the fact that some may be trusting in their works instead of faith in Jesus and his works....and they may be damned as a result. Paul was pretty plain about the reality of those trusting in their own works as being anathema, or accursed.

Sometimes I wonder when I came a real believer..was it as a Judaizer, or was it only after I stopped trusting in my own works? Was I simply an ignorant Judaizer who needed to see that my futile, incomplete observances were simply shadows and types, or was I a total unbeliever? I still haven't figured that out for sure. I may be re-baptized to wash the Judaizer teachings from me.

Additionally, there may be "Hebrew Roots" groups which appreciate the Mosaic Law observances and want to observe some sort of pseudo-Mosaic Law such as the Sabbath, festivals, and New Moons, yet do not claim non-observers are ignorant or non-Christian.

I would have no problem with that, and I believe that is what the Seventh Day Baptists and Jews for Jesus do.

If they claim to be fulfilling the Mosaic Law, they are sadly ignorant about what it entailed. The phrase "Torah Observer", if they mean that they are observing the Mosaic Law, is an ignorant term because they can't be observing the Mosaic Law. It is impossible because there is no Temple and no Levitical priesthood.

If they mean "Torah" in terms of the teachings of Scripture as they apply to the Christian believer, I would say all true Christians are "Torah observers" but why not simply call them Christians instead of Torah observers? I think it's because they want to be in some super-spiritual class above other Christians, who they consider to be ignorant. Couple that with using about twenty Hebrew words in their vocabulary in order to create the aura of being the knowledgeable ones, and you've got a pretty good self righteous, self-affirming group going.

Anyways...I don't have issues with the phrase "Hebrew Roots" either depending on what group is using the label. Some are Sabbathkeeper kooks, some may be normal.

By the way, I'll add one more characteristic of the Judaizers..they claim they are from a line of "true believers" that existed outside of the Church in hidden, remote areas, and that there has always been such a group of "true believers". One book written by such individuals is called The Incredible History of God's True Church by Ivor Fletcher. He belongs to a cultic Sabbathkeeping group and created this alternate history to claim that his organization is part of a line of true believers. This type of book is not uncommon, even in ordinary Protestant circles. The funny thing is that some of the groups cited in his book are heretical, in denying the full deity of Jesus and the Trinity, and when they claimed to be Sabbathkeepers, they were really Sunday observers because in their mind, Sunday = Sabbath. Additionally, it is based on linguistic issues such as claiming that some sandal-wearers were Sabbath keepers because they referred to their sandals as sabati, and the Sabbath-keepers interpreted this as a reference to the Sabbath

Other groups have used the same approach toward proving the legitimacy of their cultic groups. As I mentioned, this would all be quite entertaining if it was not possibly indicative of a denial of justification by faith alone.

So, which extra-canonical books do you claim are inspired, but not included in the 66 books of the canon recognized by the Church?

Ellen G. White's writings? Herbert Armstrong's writings? Apocrypha? Other Jewish writings of some sort?

This is a big warning sign, but is typical amongst some Sabbathkeeper groups (although not Seventh Day Baptist or Jews for Jesus or some other legit Messianic Jewish groups).

For the benefit of younger Christians, I recommend always carefully considering things like this when looking at Sabbathkeeper groups. You will find out that their claims regarding days and diet are just the tip of the iceberg, although it's the thing they harp on the most.

Let's also expand on what you mean by "The Lord tells us in Scripture about the Holy Spirit, Christ, and God the Father".

By this remark, are you saying that you believe in the Trinity doctrine which teaches that there is one God (YHVH) yet three distinct Persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)?

Or, do you mean something else?

See, if you were being deceptive (and I'm not saying you are), you could make this statement "The Lord tells us in Scripture about the Holy Spirit, Christ, and God the Father" without believing in the Trinity, yet mislead others into thinking they adhere to it. Omitting details on your explanation leads me to the possibility that you believe something else that is not orthodox.

Thanks for your anticipated answer.

Jeremiah 7:18 The sons are gathering wood, the fathers are lighting the fire, and the wives are kneading dough in order to make sacrificial cakes to the Queen of Heaven, and they are pouring out drink offerings to other gods to offend me.

For the benefit of younger Christians, i recommend you do not follow mens opinions or their words unless backed up by scripture.

For the benefit of younger Christians, i recommend you do not follow mens opinions or their words unless backed up by scripture.

What strikes me about your way of thinking is that you insist of thinking as a group thinks, not as scripture tells us. Also you can't seem to comprehend that anyone is only led by the lord, not by a group of men. And that all judinaizers do not believe in christ, and with no faith in Him they are judged by you as not saved!!! Even the Lord's prayer speaks to that in people.

How can you justify celebrating Christmas or Easter on a certain date in light of Col. 2:16-17? You have a way of applying these verses to outlaw those dates.

You seem to be attacking the Lord for giving the people things to do, physically, to help them live as God wanted them to, not simply tell us that we do not need the physical reminders any longer. Are you in agreement with Constantine that anything the Jews do we must not do? In that case you are following your group, not the Lord.

Have you also decided to follow your man made group in deciding about any book that has been considered scripture in the past, so you decide on whether it is scripture or not based on your group, not the Lord's leading? In that case it is a good thing that you are not living in the age when any of the books were considered scripture. That wasn't many hundreds of years ago.

And all of these things just by reading Genesis 2:
The Seventh Day
…2 And by the seventh day God had finished the work He had been doing; so on that day He rested from all His work. 3Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on that day He rested from all the work of creation that He had accomplished.

I'm sorry I just am not able to comprehend all the ways that man explains the trinity. To me it is simple, it is that God is one so each parts speaks as if one person but they are also separate. When it gets more complicated I am lost.

I am most certainly, definitely, not an expert on ancient times, history or study of the Hebrew sages. I read a lot of it, but only to learn what experts find and make no decisions because i don't have enough knowledge. I would make an educated GUESS, though that Enoch is inspired. I make my guess on that it was so considered scripture in Christ's time that it is mentioned in our scripture, and I base it on my hopes, really. It is the only real explanation of Nephilim and the flood. I guess in your eyes that labels me as unsaved, as it makes me fit your definition of a judaizer. Oh My!!! What a horror it would be to listen to you and not the Lord!

You label me your special brand of judinaizer. What does that do to your accusations of "my claims regarding days and diet"? Do I claim that I must obey all Jewish customs to be saved in your critical eyes and opposed to scripture? And all of THIS over two verses in Genesis!! When you do this over two verses, I cringe to think of how you treat all of scripture.

The word sabbath means rest. Attaching a time period to it destroys the meaning and the use throughout the Bible. Sabbath rest is as long as today is today or called under the Sun. It comes when we do hear the gospel as the holy Spirit works in us by faith, it softens ones heart .

The ceremonial shadow has another purpose. It is not something we could judge each other as if it was moral law any different than any tradition like Christmas or Easter. Shadow of the eternal rest to come .

The Today Day

For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. Hebrew 4;2-8

n I don't think the Lord limits His messages to us by limiting a meaning of a word.

We are told that we are to rest in the Lord, but that is not more saying it is the only kind of rest the Lord allows you. The Lord takes our burdens so we can rest. Christ dies for our sins, it is through Christ we are saved. That is not saying you may never sleep again because I am limiting my rest in Me so it eliminates any sleep, and that is as silly as saying it is the only rest God means for us.

We are told to rest from our labors in plain simple English, just as we are also told to rest in the Lord in plain simple English.

for the benefit of new and/or young believers, I recommend that you do not follow anyone's teachings that tell you one has to turn jewish to be a Christian.

Have you read anything ever of these postings that says that except self righteous strange people who get kicks out of shaking accusing fingers in their posts pointing out how wonderful they are because they don't do that? I haven't.

Doesn't Enoch claim there were giants over 400 feet tall? I don't remember the exact figure.

I also don't remember the other loony things it says.

There were reasons why Christians rejected those writings long ago.

Regarding the Nephalim and the flood, it isn't necessary to know those details. However, I think a good explanation can be inferred. God is describing how men and angels have conspired to rebel against Him.

We see this in Genesis 3, and then later when angels apparently have sex with human women, and then when men want to rape angels in the days of Sodom and Gomorrah.

There is a joint rebellion of the angelic and human realm.

However, this is a peripheral issue and there are other explanations.

I wouldn't rely on Enoch for theology, though, and claiming Enoch is inspired is whacky.

I wouldn't use the word "parts" to describe God.

God is one in term of essence or being, and three in terms of persons. He is a multi-personal being, and that is why he can be love by nature. He is a community of beings.

Given that, he was never alone because he is community by nature. He created to share, not because he was a lonely god off in a corner somewhere.

That's some of the reasoning that demonstrates the importance of the Triune God.

But it doesn't sound like you are anti-Trinitarian. Good

First, Christmas and Easter are irrelevant to the conversation. Some Christians observe Christmas, and some Christians do not. However, it is important to believe in the Incarnation and the Resurrection of the LORD. Both were monumental events that are central to Christianity, and that is why Sunday is observed by most Christians.

Second, the entire OT ceremonial system was composed of "reminders". Do you believe that they are applicable? Actually, they were reminders of their sinfulness largely.

Heb 10: 1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

In fact, the Day of Atonement was a constant reminder of their sinfulness.

Does God want them to remember their sinfulness under the New Covenant, where cleansing has taken place?

I don't think so.

Read this description of the New Covenant:

Heb 8:
8For he finds fault with them when he says:c
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
11And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more.”

Judaizers are more concerned with remembering their sin, and that is what I believe the Mosaic Law customs do. They focus the person more on continuing sinfulness. That's exactly what the Mosaic Law did...which was appropriate until Christ, the final sacrifice, came along.

Colossians 2:16-17 has nothing to do with Christmas and Easter. As I demonstrated through comparison with Heb 10:1-4 and Heb 9:9-11, the same language is used in regards to the Mosaic Law.

Take the time to compare these verses, if you dare.

Christmas and Easter was not applied to Christ by that time, anyways, so you are not even making sense. Do you realize that Colossians was written prior the Fall of Jerusalem? And, it's an irrelevant conversation.

Whatever one's position is, regarding Christmas and Easter, is irrelevant to the continuance of Jewish holy days to the New Testament believer.

Regarding Genesis 2:1-3, I do not context that God ceased his creative activities on the seventh day. There's no evidence of Adam and Eve resting on this day, though. God ceased his activities and entered into his creative rest. A Sabbath was not instituted until the Mosaic Law, and this Sabbath rest pointed to the liberation of Israel from Egypt. They "worked" six days in bondage to Egypt, and their "rest" was associated with their liberation from Egypt (the Sabbath).

When it came to God, he created for six days, and he "ceased" on the seventh day. When it came to Israel, they were in bondage to sin six days, and they rested in liberation on the seventh day.

If you only read Exodus, you have an incomplete picture. If you also read Deuteronomy you will see it points to being a slave in Egypt, and then being liberated.

By the way there were other time periods that pointed to the same liberation, such as the seventh year where slaves were freed, and the 50th year where sold land was returned to the original owner or his family....a form of "liberation" in itself...but you don't find Judaizers wanting to observe those things, because they can't be implemented in the Christian community. The Christian community is not ancient Israel, and the land isn't distributed only to Christians.

Just like the Judaizers are confined to insisting that clean meat laws be followed, while ignoring all the other clean/unclean laws, they confine their calendar observances in the same way.

Why? Because they can't enact them. Israel was a unique community, and the same thing can't be implemented society-wide.

They will acknowledge that when forced to, yet they will insist that their patchwork quilt of laws is still applicable.

These sorts of things are why I am no longer a Judaizer. I came to understand their inconsistencies. And, like I said, it's pretty funny if it isn't tragic.

Regarding "believing in Jesus".....this is a vague statement. What do you believe about Jesus' life and mission? If you believe in a "different Jesus", yet you claim that you believe in Jesus, it doesn't avail you anything.

Do you believe in a Jesus who died a substitutionary death on the Cross for the sins of all mankind, whom the believer is united with, and shares in spiritual blessings due to this legal and spiritual/vital union? There is no salvation with a false Jesus.

Perhaps you are just a mixed up Christian who has been fooled by Judaizer doctrine..who knows? Time will tell.

My guess is that Judaizer theology hasn't prepared you to understand these statements, though.