Is Jesus found in the O.T.?

I did read your post "throughly" and I replied to it here:

My trick knee told me from reading your post that you would say the angel of the Lord was Michael the arcangel. Why did you talk all around it instead of just saying the angel of the Lord was Michael right from the beginning? This is why I directly ask you who he was.

Now, I'm going to be "blunt" and tell you that it is impossible that the angel of the Lord is Michael. The angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ. Let me give you the "scriptual" evidence. The angel of the Lord first appears as the angel of the Lord at Genesis 16:7. (I'm going to cut to the chase on this presentation.)

Read the rest of the verses that follow Genesis 16:6. Also read Genesis 17:1-2 wher it clearly says the Lord God (physically) appeared to Abram and said He would multiply Abram's descendants just like the angel of the Lord said he will multiply Hagar's descendents. It's the same being/God who is doing the multiplying, not Michael the arcangel. Also notice in Genesis 16 that Hagar says she saw God and lived. We already know that God the Father cannot be seen even according to Jesus Christ Himself at John 1:18 and at other places.

Now, here's the "kicker" that ties all this together. Please read Genesis 22 starting at vs11 where it says, "But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, and said, "Abraham, Abraham." And he said here I am." The angel of the Lord calls out from heaven a second time at vs15, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven."

What did he say? vs16, "and said, By Myself I have SWORN declares the Lord because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son. vs17 "indeed I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore etc.

The main point I'm making is the fact that angels cannot swear oaths on behalf of God Almighty. At Hebrews 6:13,14, the writer is referring back to Genesis 22 and here is what it says, "For when God made the promise to Abraham, SINCE HE COULD NOT SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, vs14, saying, "I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you."

An angel is not greater than God Himself. Secondly, swearing an oath is a matter of one's conscience. In a court of law a person cannot swear for somebody else, period. If you witness a crime you cannot send your uncle harry in there for you and have him swear to what he saw. If you have any questions I will be happy to address them. And one more thing, please don't let your pride get in the way of discounting the scriptual evidence, be openminded.

The arcangel Michael is not "THE" angel of the Lord. Michael is just that, an angel. The Hebrew word for angel is "malak." That word means "messenger" and angels are messengers and so are men messengers. It all depends on how the word is used in context.

For example, Malachi 3:1, "Behold, I am going to send My angel/malak/messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddengly come to His temple; and the "angel/malak/messenger" of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold , He is coming, says the Lord of hosts."

The person who is described as an angel/messenger is John the Baptist and he is not an actual angel but a messenger of the Lord. This is confirmed at Mark 1:1-4. So who do you think is the Lord that will come to His temple? And who do you think is the "angel/messenger of the covenant?" It's none other than the preincarnate Jesus Christ known as "THE" angel of the Lord including at Genesis 22 which I quoted you.

In fact, the human prophet named "Malachi" is from the root word "malak" which means angel/messenger. It all depends on how the word is used in context. So again, "THE" angel of the Lord is not Michael or any other real or actual angel that are ministering spirits. Where am I wrong oseas?

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto

Well in that case why don't you or why didn't you tell us in the first place that you think Michael is really the preincarnate Jesus Christ? I gave you "rock solid" proof that it is impossible for an arcangel Michael or any angel for that matter to be the preincarnate Jesus Christ. In short, you can't refute the evidence/proof" of the Biblical record I provided to the contrary of what you think you know. Btw, can you please tell in which books of the Bible Michael is mentioned? Afterall, you did say from Genesis to Revelation so prove it?

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto

Jehovah Witness?

Are you by chance a SDA? Now, where in the Bible is Michael the arcangel ever called Lord? And here is two points to think about before you say things that are not Biblical. It says at Jude 9 the following.

But Michael the arcangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not DARE pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "THE LORD REBUKE YOU." And here is what 1 Corinthians 8:6 says, "yet for us there is but one God, the Father from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, by whom are all things and we exist through Him."

So oseas, how come Michael the arcangel rebuke the devil but instead said, "The Lord rebuke you?" And who is the "ONE LORD" at 1 Corinthians 8:6? I really suggest you stop making statements on issues without providing proof to what comes out of your mouth. I do not deny your "sincerity" by what you say, I just deny that you don't know what your talking about and it can have an adverse affect on others that are trying to learn and understand the Bible.

Do your homework first and try to know the answer yourself before you ask questions. Bible study not only takes time but it's a hard discipline which takes a lot of a lifetime of training. Paul says to Timothy at 1 Timothy4:7. "On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness." Please read the rest of the verses that follow vs7.

I am not trying to put you down or embarass you but rather educate you. Besides, the Apostle Peter said at 1 Peter 3:15, "but sanctify CHRIST AS LORD in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an acount for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence." In short, just "THINK."

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

the reason he asked is because the JW sect believes it was Michael who was crucified.
i can't help what they call themselves.

Where I said Michael is really the preincarnate JESUS? You are saying that. JESUS is the Word made flesh. The Word is God, the Most High and Almighty God, the Father. God is Spirit.
To twist my words no problem, the worse is you twisting the Word of God. The punishment is inevitable and will be soon because this millennium is the milennium of God's Judgment.

It is not through your disguised spirit of confusion which inspire you that I know that Michael and JESUS are two distincts Persons, buth both are as One. You are being a stumbling block.

You know only the letter of the Scriptures, and have not the Spirit of Christ. The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of prophecy.
You have your master, your master also know the Bible, he cited Psalms 91:v.11 to the Lord JESUS in the temptation in the desert. By the way, he knows who I am.

That said, unto every one that has will be given, and he will have abundance: but from him that has not will be taken away even that which he has. Thou believest that there is one God? the devils also believe, and tremble.

I have to ask how old are you oseas? Secondly, how long have you claimed to be a Christian? I ask because is that the best you have that I"m going to be punished in the millenium? And then your also accusing me of having a "disquised spirit of confusion?"

Then you now show up "backpeddling" on what you said by telling me that it is I that said Michael is the arcangel. Ugh! Here are you exact words from your own post #45, "Really the literal translation says "angel of the Lord", but he is a strong angel, a warrior, a Prince of the Lord, his name is Michael," You also in some of your other post implied that Michael the arcangel is the angel of the Lord.

The other problem you have (among many) is you keep posting verses and then mix up or "conflate" the verses by saying Jesus is the Word/Logos (which is tru btw) but you also throw Michael into the mix causing more confusion.

Now, your in the big leagues and your not messing around with little kids that don't know what their talking about. I have been at this for 57 years and I'm telling you Michael the arcangel is not the angel of the Lord. The angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ.

One of the reasons Michael is not the angel of the Lord is because angels cannot swear oaths on behalf of God Himself. This is said at Genesis 22:16 and can also be found at Hebres 6:13,14. Now, and I just thought of this while I'm typing. I thought I read in one of your post that Michael was born like the rest of us are born, is this what you said? I'll try and look for where you said it. Again, do your homework before you post on issues you don't know about, "THINK."

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

No, I am not accusing you are possessed by a disguised spirit, the spirit of confusion, I have stated that because it is Truth.
Accusation occurs when what was/is said is not true, accusation implies in false testimony. I re-state that you spirit is a dissimulate spirit, a spirit of confusion working with the letter of Scriptures, and twisting them the way the Devil likes for your own perdition.


No "backpeddling", absolutely, actually you have not Spirit to discern what I speak by the Spirit. I do not interpret Scriptures by the letter or by literal translation such as your deceiver spirit does. Actually your disguised spirit doesn't leave you to see that I literally wrote "angel of the Lord" in quotes, and revealed also that the Scripture is talking about an archangel, Michael, though the translation.
In the celestial hierarquy, among the angels an archangel is more powerful than an angel. Your disguised spirit is not linked with the Spirit of Scriptures, and much less he is linked to whom are the angels of the Churches, as Michael the archangel showed unto John in the isle of Patmos.
And the Scripture literally says Michael is an archangel, what is true, and your deceiving spirit has no chance to deceive me, I know him, I know who he is.

Who says JESUS is the Word - the Word is God - made flesh is the own Word of God, I confirm what is written, and what is written in the Word of God is true, for he whom God has sent speaks the words of God: for God gives not the Spirit by measure unto him.
The Word is God, the Invisible God, God is Spirit, the Most High and Almighty God, God the Father, and JESUS is the own Word made flesh.
By the way, All things were made by JESUS; and without JESUS was not any thing made that was made-John 1:v.3. (Where was written "Him" I placed the name of Him, it is very wonderful and leaves very clear who is the person the Scripture is talking from)


Well, then you are linked in your so old error yet, and continues wrong; Michael and JESUS are two distincts Persons, and JESUS is more powerful than Michael, and Michael is commanded by JESUS, the Almighty, the Word made flesh.


As I said above, The Word is God, the Invisible God, God is Spirit, the Most High and Almighty God, God the Father, and JESUS is Him, JESUS is the own Word-God- made flesh, the Almighty.
What you wrote is FAKE, completely. It is doctrine of demons, it is tares sowed by the Devil. You use the letter of the Bible to confound the people, surely that is the spirit of Devil, he works within his ministers(2Cor.11:v.13-15), and is working through you too and sowing his tares.

You know not God, neither JESUS, much less the angels of the Lord, God has made them ministers as a flaming fire(Psa.104:v.4). They are ministers commanded by God to do specific works in accord God's will and in the name of the own God (Exo.23:v.21-God is Spirit), as was with Abraham, and the things was made in Sodom and Gomorrah. Also when Balaam went with the princes of Moab and God's anger was kindled because he went, so the angel of the Lord under the command of God stood in the way for an adversary against Balaam. With Moses on Mt. Sinai, and Joshua in Jericho, from Genesis to Revelation we see God working-God is Spirit, Invisible God - thtough His angels or anchangel.

Revelation 12:v.1-2 & 5 & 7 combined with Daniel 12:1-3, among others.

THINK what? JESUS said: All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him.Matt. 11:v.27 - What man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God.

Boy, are you ever off the rails with your theology. Who is teaching you this stuff and what church do you attend, (if you even go to church) or what "cult" are you involved in? I'll go first, I atttend a Calvary Chapel Church, how about you?

You said I was "dissimulate" which means I concela or disquise my thought, feeling or character." I'm an open book and have nothing to hinde or conceal. Now, you brought up the subject of angels and you quoted Genesis 18 and said three angels met with Abraham.

That is not true. Genesis 18:1 says, "Now the LORD APPEARED to Him/Abraham by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent dooor in the heat of the day." If you would have taken the time to read the whole chapter you would discover that there was only two angels that appeared as men to Abraham and the other one was the angel of the Lord/Jesus Christ before He incarnated.

I also know that you do not know that the Hebrew word for "angel" is "malak." That word can refer to an actual angel like Michael or Gabriel or it can refer to a human being., it all depends on the how it is used in "CONTEXT." Malachi 3:1, "Behold I am going to send my angel, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple, and the angel of the covenant, in whom you delight behold, He is coming, says the Lord of hosts."

The "angel" that will clear the way of the Lord is not an actual angel but John the Baptist who is a human being. To back this up just read Mark 1:1-4. Moreover, in the verse of Malachi 3:1 the angel of the covenant is the angel of the Lord, again the preincarnate Jesus Christ.

At Genesis 22 it was the angel of the Lord who swore the oath to Abraham that he would multiply Abrahams descendants at vs16-17. The same being or person that would multiply Abraham's descendants at Genesis 17:1-2 who identified Himself as God Almighty.

Also Hebrews 6:13-14 says, "For WHEN GOD made the promise to Abraham, since HE COULD NOT SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF," vs14, saying, "I WILL SURELY BLESS YOU, AND I WILL SURELY MULTIPLY YOU." This is not Michael the arcangel because as I have stated twice now, angels cannot swear oaths on behalf of God.

Why do you think at vs33 the writer of Hebrews says, "God swore by Himself because no one (including angels) are not greater than God Almighty. So now oseas, what kind of "esoteric" excuses are you going to bring up? You act like you have some sort of secret knowledge that the rest of us don't know because you think you understand the things of God better than the rest of us. What you are as far as I'm concerned is a "dilettante" who cultivates an area of interest, such as the nonsense your posting without any real Biblical knowledge. In short, your "PRIDE" is telling you that you know it all. Your better repent.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I am not off the rails in the interpretation of Scriptures gathering tares you spread among the people in the way the Devil likes. You work for the kingdom of Devil, not for God's Kingdom. The Lord said: he that has my Word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat?

To attend a Calvary Chapel Church or any sect signifies nothing. If the spirit that leads you in the blackness of the darkness is the same spirit of your Pastor, and also of the others who attend your church, you all are lost before God's Judgment and destined to the hell's FIRE.

I did not quote Genesis 18 in any of my posts, you are inventing and liyng. Why do not you quote what I wrote in my post? I do not recognize what you are saying, that is I "brought up the subject of angels and quoted Genesis 18 and said three angels met with Abraham". Again: Why do not you quote what I wrote in my post? Isn't it your cunning spirit manifesting himself from the blackness of the darkness? I am not fighting against flesh and blood, but against evil spirits which work through the TAIL of the red Dragon as does the spirit of you.

What is not true are the things that the spirit of darkness says through you. Your testimony about JESUS is fake and satanic. You do not know JESUS. By the way, no man knows JESUS, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save JESUS, the Son of God, and he to whomsoever JESUS will reveal Him.


You know nothing about things that I know within Scriptures, actually you are possessed also by the spirit of lie among others. You are a stumblingblock, you speak of the Holy Scriptures as the old Serpent, the Devil, you are a deceiver. I am not fighting against flesh and blood, but against three unclean spirits like frogs that come out of the mouth of the Dragon, and out of the mouth of the Beast, and out of the mouth of the false preachers of the Holy Scriptures.They are the spirits of devils...which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of this Great Day of God Almighty, the Lord's Day.

You are waisting your time trying to speak of Scriptures for your own perdition. Do you say preincarnate Jesus Christ? The Word, the Word is God the Father, the Word was made flesh only and only once, not twice, and it occurred around two thousand years ago.

You are possessed by the spirit of the Old Serpent, the Devil and Satan spreading your satanic tares in everywhere you try to speak of Scriptures, mainly in your poor Calvary Chapel Church. As I said above, If the spirit that leads you in the blackness of the darkness is the same spirit of your Pastor, and also of the others who attend your church, you all are lost before God's Judgment and destined to the hell's FIRE for ever and ever. In this case, your church is a "nest" of demons.

You are saying that and not me, by the way, the spirit that manifest himself through you intend to be like God showing himself is God. 2Thes.2:v.4. Scriptures explain all things infinitely better than you, evidently, you have nothing to do with Scriptures, but doctrines of demons.

Your post proves how your treacherous, shrewd and evil spirit acts within you. What value has the work you do reciting the Scriptures, if your body and soul can be cast into the deepest hells by the Most High God? You are dominated and enveloped by the doctrines of demons which possessed you and live within you, and you believe in spirit of demons as your own belief demonstrates.

If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

So, if one is not of JESUS, then he is of the Devil and is lost for ever, because this present time is of Judgment, the righteous Judgment of God.

So what do we have here oseas? We have a guy, (assuming you are a guy) who is unable to address the Biblical facts given. Instead, your sole purpose was to portray me as the "Devil incarnate." Am I mad, not at all. I feel sorry for you and not only will I pray for you I hope others around here will do the same. If there is anything you want from me I will be happy to accomodate you.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Yes, Brother, it is very hard to understand and to explain it, and I agree with you "how (could) this makes Michael the child born who is to rule all the nations with an iron scepter? It is hard to understand that because if based in theories that have been spread in this last times or last days, by them we can not see how the TRUE revelation makes sense. It's very difficult for us in the midst of so much confusion and apostasies to understand or to know what is the TRUE revelation and interpretation of this God's mystery.

The Word of God reveals that : (I will try to describe it)

1Thes.4:v.16- "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the VOICE of the archangel-he is Michael-,and with the trump of God-the God's trump is with Michael- and the dead in Christ shall rise first yes (Dan.12:v.1-3), in fulfiment was written in the Word of God by Daniel. Actually Michael Judges and makes War-Revelation 12:v.7 and 16:v.13-16. After the battle or ending the battle, Michael will lay hold on the Dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and will bind him a thousand years, and will cast him into the bottomless pit, he will shut him up and will set a seal upon him, that the Devil deceives the nations no more. Rev.20:v.1-3.

THE BIRTH OF MICHAEL

We have to understand that in order to do his works in these last TIMES or last DAYS, Michael would first have to be born, I would say it is obvious, and grow, and develop to the age of performing his work according to what God had determined by Scriptures from the Old to the New Testament. By the way, as was exactly the case with John the Baptist for example, and much deeper, the birth of Jesus, the Word became flesh, which is far superior to angels, archangels, cherubim, in short, Jesus is only below God the Father in the heavenly hierarchy, but had to be born here to do His work according to the Scriptures. It's no different with Michael, of course.

Again: How could Michael stand up and make war and judge if he were not born first, just as Jesus and John the Baptist were born? Impossible of course. You see, it's very difficult in the midst of so much confusion to speak of the true revelation that God's Word brings unto us. But who is going to believe the true revelation that is within everyone's reach, living in this hostile environment full of speculation, and presumption, and conjectures, and apostasies, and cunningly devised fables, and so on? This end-of-day moment and end of the second covenant, is very complicated to understand because the earth is infested with tares.

Remember and consider that :

1 - The first coming of the LORD was with the VOICE that cried in the wilderness -John the Baptist- who was born by prophecy, that is by the power of the Word of God, for his mother was old, sterile, and unable to bear children, and his father Zachariah was old too. But the Word is God, so what is written fulfil literally by the Power of the written Word-the Word is God-.

2 - And now, the Lord will descend with the VOICE of the archangel, yes, with the VOICE of the archangel Michael - his VOICE is a trumpet and is a message, the God's trump is with Michael. The message is a trumpet, the problem is whether the voice or the message of the messenger is believed by the listeners. If the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? What battle? The battle is described in Rev.12:v.7 and 16:v.13-16 and will culminate with the prison of Satan into the bottomless pit.

Michael Judges and makes War; he will rescue them which are found written in the book of the Lord, but how? By a trumpet, by a powerful message, evidently, so powerful that there will be resurrection of the dead-Hallelujaaaah"-, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And the environment in the earth will be of great distress such as never occurred since there was nation until THIS time, this is already running because this millennium belongs no more to the men, but to the LORD exclusively.

We see also Michael sounds the trumpet even now in the beginning of the first century of the seventh and last millennium, the millennium of Christ, or seventh and last Day, the Lord's Day, for this millennium belongs to the LORD exclusively, no more to the men. And the trumpet of Michael sounds in accord the prophecy as is written in 1 Thes. 4:v.16: "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel - Michael -, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first-Dan.12:v.1-3. Its it.

About God's trump that must sound among us through the archangel Michael it is the seventh trump: Rev.11:v.15 - And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of THIS WORLD ARE BECOME the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Michael will lay hold on the Dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and will bind him a thousand years, and will cast him into the bottomless pit, he will shut him up and will set a seal upon him, that the Devil deceives the nations no more. Rev.20:v.1-3.

Rev. 2:v. 17 - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the Churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna...


that's Psalm 2:7-9, which is Christ, is it not?

The fact is that Jesus and Michael are very similar, it because Michael does not speak of himself; but whatsoever he heard from God he speaks, actually he received of JESUS and takes of Him, and he does not speak of himself, in other words, he has no message of his own, but the one he received from the Lord to speak in the churches. Revelation 1:v.12-13. This mystery is very deeper.

Revelation 5:v.9-10

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth-Revelation 11:v.15.

In Christ JESUS, King of kings (made by Him) and LORD of lords

What's hard to understand is your foolish and unbiblical post. If I was to descend from a moutain top and used my voice to bark like a dog, would I actually be a dog? Of course not. Secondly, where is your Biblical proof with verses that Michael the arcangel was born?

When Jesus was born it says at Matthew 1:21 His name will be Jesus. It futher says at Matthew 1:23, "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name "Immanuel," which translated means, "God with us,"

So oseas, who bore Michael and where was he born?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Luke 24:44:

These are the words spoken of me that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of moses, and in the prophets and in the psalms, concerning me.

Anyway, Scripture warns saying: "With out are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. And Paul the Apostle also warned about dogs among God's people : Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision-Phil.3:v.2 .

And JESUS advised: "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you".

Jesus is found in the entire Bible. He is the LIVING WORD!