Is Jesus found in the O.T.?

posthuman · Nov 7, 2019

this says Moses spoke with an angel on Mt. Sinai

And when the blast of the trumpet sounded long and became louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by voice. Then the LORD came down upon Mount Sinai, on the top of the mountain. And the LORD called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up.
(Exodus 19:19-20)

this says Moses spoke with I AM on Mt. Sinai

what do you think ?
who is THE Angel of the LORD?

how does Agur know that God has a Son, in Proverbs 30:4?

posthuman · Nov 7, 2019

Oseas said:

what translation is this that says "actually an archangel" in Exodus 23:23?

posthuman · Nov 7, 2019

Lanolin said:

all the hours

bluto · Nov 7, 2019

Oseas said:

Acts 7:v.30-38 reveals who was him:

30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord (actually an Archangel) in a flame of fire in a bush.

31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,

32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob*. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold. (Compare with

33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.

34 I have seen, I have seen the affliction of my people which is in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and am come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send thee into Egypt.

35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.

36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.

37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

* I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob

20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.*

22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.

23 For mine Angel (actually an Archangel) shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

Hi oseas! Let me first say it is good that you quoted Stephen at Acts 7 because I too like what how he read the "riot" act to the Jews. Now, I have two questions for you? What is your personal belief as to who the angel of the Lord is? Secondly, how do you know the angel of the Lord is an "Archangel?"

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

posthuman · Nov 7, 2019

Magenta said:

the "you" actually isn't in the text; jut implied - it's an imperative form of the verb 'study' in 2nd person plural
it's not that he's describing something, as in, 'they study the scriptures'
it's a command, as in, 'you people! study the scriptures!'

Magenta · Nov 7, 2019

posthuman said:

I must disagree, because Jesus is telling them they do study but completely miss seeing Him which is the central purpose of Scripture in the first place

It also answers the OP's question, because yes, Jesus can be found in the OT

Whispered · Nov 7, 2019

jacob_g said:

Of course the Old Testament is still relevant! I can't imagine anyone thinking it is not.
The Old Testament prophesied, the New Testament is those prophesies realized.

Where Is Jesus in the Old Testament?
How to Find Him on Every Last Page

BING search criteria: scriptures old testament jesus

posthuman · Nov 7, 2019

Oseas said:

And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?”

So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.”

And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, “What does my Lord say to His servant?”

Then the Commander of the Lord’s army said to Joshua, “Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.” And Joshua did so.
(Joshua 5:13-15)

when the people are about to enter the land, Joshua met THE Angel of the LORD.
THE Angel of the LORD accepted worship from Joshua without rebuking him.
when Joshua asked Him what he should do, that he might obey His voice, He told him to take off his sandals because the place he stood in His presence was holy - just like what was said at the burning bush by I AM. not coincidence

Whispered · Nov 7, 2019

posthuman said:

The Book of John chapter 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

You=ὑμεῖς (hymeis)

Complete Jewish Bible John 5:39 You keep examining the Tanakh because you think that in it you have eternal life. Those very Scriptures bear witness to me, 40 but you won’t come to me in order to have life!

posthuman · Nov 7, 2019

Magenta said:

the grammar itself is ambiguously either imperative or indicative - it's the same. the early church took it as imperative; the Latin uses a word that can equally be either case, and the Syriac is imperative. you will find commentaries that argue for either view ((as is usually the case with parsing commentaries))
i believe it is imperative, for more than a few reasons, none of which are necessary to argue about - because we would agree either way about the crux of this:

He is certainly not chiding them for diligently searching the scriptures, in fact He is saying that they testify of Him - Him who is Life. the reason for searching - whether indicative or imperative - is the belief that eternal life is in them: Christ says later in John that knowing Him is eternal life, so by saying that they testify of Him, in addition to emphatically answering the OP question ((yay!

)), He is saying that knowledge of Him is in the scriptures - knowledge of Him being, the substance of eternal life.
so He's not saying eternal life isn't in the scriptures - He is eternal life, and He's in the scriptures. He says, Moses is who they have set their hope on, but they don't believe Moses. if we would believe what we read in the scriptures, we would indeed find eternal life in them - because if we believe then we will find Him in them. whether the grammar is a command or a description set aside - should we study the scriptures, thinking eternal life is in them, looking for how they testify of Him?
ha! the desire in our hearts to know Him, does that spirit itself not command us to?

posthuman · Nov 7, 2019

Whispered said:

neat!

here's John 5:39 --

ἐρευνᾶτε τὰς γραφάς, ὅτι ὑμεῖς δοκεῖτε ἐν αὐταῖς ζωὴν αἰώνιον ἔχειν, καὶ ἐκεῖναί εἰσιν αἱ μαρτυροῦσαι περὶ ἐμοῦ·

notice that the "hymeis" is after ἐρευνᾶτε τὰς γραφάς

ἐρευνᾶτε - present, 2nd person plural for 'diligently search' - imperative and nominative are the same
τὰς - the
γραφάς - plural form of 'scripture'
ὅτι - for/because/since
ὑμεῖς - you, plural

posthuman · Nov 7, 2019

posthuman said:

imperative and *indicative

whoops! typo i didn't catch

Whispered · Nov 7, 2019

posthuman said:

Cool!
Oh, you forgot the source for that. Here, please allow me to assist.
https://biblehub.com/text/john/5-39.htm

And your other source: No problem at all, here allow me to paste for you:
https://biblehub.com/greek/eraunate_2045.htm

posthuman · Nov 7, 2019

Whispered said:

thank you for substantiating what i said, and corroborating the fact that you were wrong to imply that the scripture says "ὑμεῖς ἐρευνᾶτε" - appreciate you providing for everyone links to sources which definitively show the readers that it indeed says only "ἐρευνᾶτε"

i think it's swell when people admit their errors, and how much better when they go to lengths to make it known & correct them!
usually they just get mad and say more wrong things

Whispered · Nov 7, 2019

posthuman said:

No, not really.
Rather, I posted links to the sources you used thinking they would make your point without crediting them as is proper board etiquette on forums. This so as to avoid the charge of plagiarism.
You're welcome.

Whispered · Nov 7, 2019

4771hymeis

ὑμεῖς

you

PPro-N2P

# 4771σύ

Transliteration Origin
sý
the person pronoun of the second person singular
Phonetic
soo
Part of Speech TDNT
pronounNone
Definition [ Thayer's | Strong's ]
Thayer's Definition

you

Translated Words
KJV (178) - thou, 178
NAS (25) - number, 1; yours, 17; yourself, 4; yourselves, 3
HCS (167) - how you, 1; you, 1; *, 1; Are You, 1; Are you, 1; As for you, 1; But you, 1; Do you, 3; You, 82; You're, 2; are You, 2; are you, 1; as for you, 2; can You, 2; can you, 1; do You, 1; do you, 2; it that You, 1; mdash; you, 2; passage, You, 1; so you, 1; t you, 1; when you, 1; while you, 1; will You, 1; you, 49; you're, 1; you've, 1; yourself, 2

posthuman · Nov 7, 2019

Whispered said:

4771hymeis

ὑμεῖς

you

PPro-N2P

# 4771σύ

Transliteration Origin
sý
the person pronoun of the second person singular
Phonetic
soo
Part of Speech TDNT
pronounNone
Definition [ Thayer's | Strong's ]
Thayer's Definition

you

Translated Words
KJV (178) - thou, 178
NAS (25) - number, 1; yours, 17; yourself, 4; yourselves, 3
HCS (167) - how you, 1; you, 1; *, 1; Are You, 1; Are you, 1; As for you, 1; But you, 1; Do you, 3; You, 82; You're, 2; are You, 2; are you, 1; as for you, 2; can You, 2; can you, 1; do You, 1; do you, 2; it that You, 1; mdash; you, 2; passage, You, 1; so you, 1; t you, 1; when you, 1; while you, 1; will You, 1; you, 49; you're, 1; you've, 1; yourself, 2

why'd you post this?

Oseas · Nov 7, 2019

posthuman said:

What do I think? To interpret the Scriptures above is very hard, this is as if we have to decipher enigmas /puzzles. But what is written in 1Cor.2:v.9-13?
9 It is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

That said, it is wonderful to search the deep things of God. One of God's deep things is to know God. First, God is not a name, to me is a title. We know that God is Spirit and He is Invisible. John the Apostle said: The Word is God. The Holy Scriptures is the own Word,that is the invisible God who was made flesh, for the Word - the God Father - is Spirit. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word-the Word made flesh-, and the Holy Spirit(who is not a Ghost as is written in English language, but a Person): and these three are One.

You wrote "this says Moses spoke with an angel on Mt. Sinai"

Yes, God- the Word- the Word is Spirit - sent His angel on Mt. Sinai to spek with Moses and he made a great sign before Moses. And the angel (actually an Archangel, a Prince of the Lord) revealed to Moses the plans of God-the Word, and said: "Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt. That was hard Moses to understand what was happening and asked to the angel: and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God -God is Spirit- speaking by His angel said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

I Am that I Am is not a name, this a personal statement: I am that I am. For example: You are that you are and I am that I am, no mystery. But when the angel said unto Moses: Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you, here is hidden a great mystery, and it is this: The I Am is JESUS, but the name of JESUS could not be revealed yet or in that time. I Am is the person of JESUS really. God the Father-the Word- and JESUS are One. All things, but all, were made by JESUS; and without JESUS was not any thing made that was made. JESUS sent His angel - actually an archangel, by the way, a warrior, a Prince of the Lord - to speak with Moses on Mt. Sinai. See, we are speaking of mysteries, they are not hidden, but is about revelation.

You asked: "how does Agur know that God has a Son, in Proverbs 30:4?"

It is wonderful, God was revealing His secret unto Agur - God, the Word, is Spirit - but the name of His Son was also a secret to be revealed in its own time, precisely in the fourth Day after Adam , when the Word would be made flesh.

If anything you would like to know has not been clarified, feel free to ask

God bless

now I need to go, I'll be back later to answer other posts by God's will

Adstar · Nov 8, 2019

jacob_g said:

All the OT speaks of Jesus because Jesus and the Father are One.. Jesus said that Moses wrote about Him... Moses wrote a lot about the LORD..

dcontroversal · Nov 8, 2019

jacob_g said:

Search the scriptures, they are theu that testify of me <--when Jesus said this....the N.T. had not yet been penned.......

In the VOLUME of the BOOK it is written of me!

Is Jesus found in the O.T.?

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