Is unconditional election biblical?

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Is unconditional election biblical?

  • Yes, unconditional election is biblical.

    Votes: 23 43.4%

  • No , unconditional election is not biblical.

    Votes: 27 50.9%

  • I don't know.

    Votes: 3 5.7%
  • Total voters
    53
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#521
#521
Grandpa said:
I knew you were a Secret Calvinist...:LOL:
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So funny you are ;).... this is the mistake of non-Calvinists, they make faith a volitional act........... but neither do I think that even in our fallen state we cannot respond to the Gospel, because I absolutely believe that a heart/mind/soul who has come to the end of itself will respond, not by an act of the will but by conviction.

Belief on anything in life is really not an act of the will.
 
Whispered

Whispered

Well-known member
#522
Aug 17, 2019
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#522
Grandpa said:
This is the perfect example of worshipping your own will and wishes INSTEAD of reading the bible.

The Lord Jesus says in His Own Words, Without Me you can do nothing.

"If God is the one that chooses, then our will, that we all worship, means nothing." Yes. Bingo.


Acts 4:10-12
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


That's what you wish for. But wishing doesn't make it true.



I don't understand how people can read the bible THEN come to the conclusion that it is by their own WILL and their own Strength and Understanding they are saved.

Unless they just missed the whole boat and they are reading only bits and pieces and not really understanding that either.





TULIP is only blasphemy against those who worship their own will and strength.

You know, all those people who boast about how righteous they are by their own work and how they have made all those good decisions to MAKE God save them. God basically owes them Blessing and Salvation because they followed all the instructions in just the right way, according to their own will and understanding.

And if they could just make everyone else follow those same instructions in just the same understanding as them then God will owe them Salvation and Blessing too.

What a joke.

Matthew 19:25-26
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 1:26-29
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.


Its all in the bible. You just have to read it. And when you find you have been chosen there is no boasting in your own will, there is no boasting in your own understanding, there is no boasting in your own strength. It all comes from God for His Own Purpose. The only thing an elect person can boast in is in the Strength and Wisdom of God.
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I read this and as I did I thought of all that time I'd need spend repeating myself.

Then I decided on the best track to respond: keep it simple, stupid!

Therefore I'll say this.

Don't presume people don't read their Bibles.

All that is needed to be saved is faith. What is faith?
Faith is an act of our will, based on understanding and knowledge of the truth of God in Christ.

If we cannot choose to have faith and our salvation is entirely God's making us that way himself, then there would be no need for preachers. Who would they be persuading to believe the Good News? When, per your understanding of the Gospel, we do not make any choice to repent and be saved but rather it is God who makes it so.

Romans 10

And if there were no free will, there would be no scriptures in God's words to us that speak of and to, free will.
But there are verses in both the Old and New Testaments.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#523
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#523
Whispered said:
I read this and as I did I thought of all that time I'd need spend repeating myself.

Then I decided on the best track to respond: keep it simple, stupid!

Therefore I'll say this.

Don't presume people don't read their Bibles.

All that is needed to be saved is faith. What is faith?
Faith is an act of our will, based on understanding and knowledge of the truth of God in Christ.

If we cannot choose to have faith and our salvation is entirely God's making us that way himself, then there would be no need for preachers. Who would they be persuading to believe the Good News? When, per your understanding of the Gospel, we do not make any choice to repent and be saved but rather it is God who makes it so.

Romans 10

And if there were no free will, there would be no scriptures in God's words to us that speak of and to, free will.
But there are verses in both the Old and New Testaments.
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Its good that there are people who believe they have free will. Its good that there are people who think they can work for their salvation.

It will cause people to try really hard to be good people and be saved.

When they find that their way is futile maybe they will turn to God.


And when they do that maybe they will see how Good God is and how their free will and work could never amount to causing themselves to be good and to gain salvation.


Maybe...?
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#524
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#524
UnderGrace said:
So funny you are ;).... this is the mistake of non-Calvinists, they make faith a volitional act........... but neither do I think that even in our fallen state we cannot respond to the Gospel, because I absolutely believe that a heart/mind/soul who has come to the end of itself will respond, not by an act of the will but by conviction.

Belief on anything in life is really not an act of the will.
Click to expand...
Its really hard to talk about belief.

You can't tell someone that what they believe is wrong. Because their belief is their own, and it is right for them.


I think we respond to everything. Not always in a good way. But we are always responding to something.

Rejecting the gospel still requires a response.


Accepting the gospel and believing in Jesus is a miracle. I think.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#525
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
3,687
113
#525
Grandpa said:
Its good that there are people who believe they have free will. Its good that there are people who think they can work for their salvation.

It will cause people to try really hard to be good people and be saved.

When they find that their way is futile maybe they will turn to God.


And when they do that maybe they will see how Good God is and how their free will and work could never amount to causing themselves to be good and to gain salvation.


Maybe...?
Click to expand...
Believing vs works salvation...two different things.
 
CharliRenee

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
#526
Nov 4, 2014
6,693
7,176
113
#526
I sigh with shrugs, when I read someone say that Jesus died for some but not for others,


Why belittle or limit His atoning sacrifice. He died for us all.


We choose to reject or accept.


Taking away choice, takes away His Glory because no one is given options.


If you feel there is no choice, why do you bother with trying to prove that to be so? Is that not a colossal waste of time?


How does that serve you or anyone else?
 
Whispered

Whispered

Well-known member
#527
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
2,230
113
www.christiancourier.com
#527
Grandpa said:
Its good that there are people who believe they have free will. Its good that there are people who think they can work for their salvation.

It will cause people to try really hard to be good people and be saved.

When they find that their way is futile maybe they will turn to God.


And when they do that maybe they will see how Good God is and how their free will and work could never amount to causing themselves to be good and to gain salvation.


Maybe...?
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The problem with your theology is that you don't actually read what people post. You don't actually think on what they post because you don't actually read what they post.

This is why your theology is lacking. Because of what you do not do, while insisting you know what you are talking about.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#528
#528
Grandpa said:
Its good that there are people who believe they have free will. Its good that there are people who think they can work for their salvation.

It will cause people to try really hard to be good people and be saved.

When they find that their way is futile maybe they will turn to God.


And when they do that maybe they will see how Good God is and how their free will and work could never amount to causing themselves to be good and to gain salvation.


Maybe...?
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that's actually insulting and again we see that attitude that Calvinists are well known for

typical typical typical

and typically untrue in both it's application with regards to free will AND how we understand God's mercy

whispered seems to be right.

you just may not actually read people's post or if you do, comprehension is somehow lacking

smh
 
Melach

Melach

Well-known member
#529
Mar 28, 2019
2,055
1,524
113
#529
UnderGrace said:
So funny you are ;).... this is the mistake of non-Calvinists, they make faith a volitional act........... but neither do I think that even in our fallen state we cannot respond to the Gospel, because I absolutely believe that a heart/mind/soul who has come to the end of itself will respond, not by an act of the will but by conviction.

Belief on anything in life is really not an act of the will.
Click to expand...
explain this more
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#530
#530
Grandpa said:
Its really hard to talk about belief.

You can't tell someone that what they believe is wrong. Because their belief is their own, and it is right for them.


I think we respond to everything. Not always in a good way. But we are always responding to something.

Rejecting the gospel still requires a response.


Accepting the gospel and believing in Jesus is a miracle. I think.
Click to expand...

the irony is comical at best and truly sad at worst

yes, rejecting the gospel and making up your own is not a good thing to do

I say I believe in Christ along with many others here and so do you

but only Calvinists are saved because they cannot make up their own minds for themselves

I have said on this forum by now probably a couple of hundred times

ONLY the blood of Christ saves

so if a person accepts Christ, they are saved and God does not give a fig newton if Calvin approves or not
 
Whispered

Whispered

Well-known member
#533
Aug 17, 2019
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#533
CharliRenee said:
I sigh with shrugs, when I read someone say that Jesus died for some but not for others,


Why belittle or limit His atoning sacrifice. He died for us all.


We choose to reject or accept.


Taking away choice, takes away His Glory because no one is given options.


If you feel there is no choice, why do you bother with trying to prove that to be so? Is that not a colossal waste of time?


How does that serve you or anyone else?
Click to expand...
It is the height of egoism and pride. A doctrine is promoted here that says exactly that; Jesus didn't die for the whole world, but for those God pre-selected.
And that death didn't actually accomplish anything at all , which makes Jesus entire ministry a lie, because God does all the work having created a people incapable of choice. God Himself forces His pre-selects to enter His grace, gain faith in Him, against their will, the will of the totally depraved that He first created to be that. And then decided to change their totally depraved condition and save those few by His own will, not their own, because He had preplanned the entire thing and prior to creating anything, including the humans for whom He made such plans.

If we break down the particulars of TULIP we see it prescribes for the world not a God of mercy , but rather a Devil that articulates the antithesis of the Gospel message and the moral laws of Jesus, the ten commandments , and this is key in that, particularly the factor of love. Love of God and our capacity for love for our fellow human beings.

TULIP is at its core not only blasphemy, but if you picture the deity it describes, is also Satanic, propping up Satan rather than God.

John Calvin was evil. If his theology was of God why would he have any part in the execution of anyone under the charge of heresy?
Think about it.
TULIP, Calvin's doctrine, is the absolute plan of God in John Calvin's mind. He of course is one of God's elect, those who follow his doctrine are too. All who do not are not. What's the problem then with anyone else believing anything else when those beliefs are not the "true one" Calvin teaches?

Instead, John Calvin was party to a man's being burned alive, using greenwood, so that the victim would take longer to succumb because the green wood takes longer to catch to full fire, and because the man did not agree with Calvin's doctrine.
But that's to be expected isn't it? Being that man and all non-Calvinists are to remain Totally Depraved and destined to die in our sins because we are not the elect.

Isn't that enough? Shouldn't that be enough? That according to John Calvin, we're doomed to eternal damnation? Why trouble himself with wanting to see people killed by some court order? When he, Calvin, "knows" their destiny is Hell?

John Calvin was a prophet of Satan, not God.
As we're told, even Satan can appear as an angel of light.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#534
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#534
UnderGrace said:
So funny you are ;).... this is the mistake of non-Calvinists, they make faith a volitional act........... but neither do I think that even in our fallen state we cannot respond to the Gospel, because I absolutely believe that a heart/mind/soul who has come to the end of itself will respond, not by an act of the will but by conviction.

Belief on anything in life is really not an act of the will.
Click to expand...
The natural man, before he has been born spiritually, will not respond to things of the Spirit, neither will he be convicted of breaking a spiritual law that he can not discern (1 Cor 2:14).
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#535
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#535
7seasrekeyed said:
the irony is comical at best and truly sad at worst

yes, rejecting the gospel and making up your own is not a good thing to do

I say I believe in Christ along with many others here and so do you

but only Calvinists are saved because they cannot make up their own minds for themselves

I have said on this forum by now probably a couple of hundred times

ONLY the blood of Christ saves

so if a person accepts Christ, they are saved and God does not give a fig newton if Calvin approves or not
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The scriptures say nothing about man accepting Christ's crucifiction.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#536
#536
ForestGreenCook said:
The scriptures say nothing about man accepting Christ's crucifiction.
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why did Christ die?

why is He called the Savior of the world?

all have sinned and the same all are justified through the redemption that we receive through Christ

Jesus did not die for some but all as the Bible clearly says

 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#537
#537
Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. Hebrews 7:25

we read those who come to Him....

not those who are basically devoid of a will and cannot help themself
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#538
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
3,687
113
#538
ForestGreenCook said:
The scriptures say nothing about man accepting Christ's crucifiction.
Click to expand...
1 Corinthians 15
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#539
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#539
7seasrekeyed said:
why did Christ die?

why is He called the Savior of the world?

all have sinned and the same all are justified through the redemption that we receive through Christ

Jesus did not die for some but all as the Bible clearly says

Click to expand...
He is the Savior "unto all and upon all them that believe" the world of believers (Rom 3:22). All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, but only believers are justified freely by his grace. The same application applies in John 3:16. Rom 3:26- To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness; that he might be just, and the justifier of him which BELIEVETH in Jesus. Jesus did not die for all mankind, as the bible clearly says, only for those who believe. John 6:44- All that he draws (or will draw) shall come to him and he will raise them all up at the last day. He does not draw all mankind.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#540
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#540
John146 said:
1 Corinthians 15
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
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What did they receive? The gospel, which tells them how that they were saved by his crucification, not how to be saved if they accept his crucifiction. Verse 2 explains that they are delivered (saved) here in time, if they keep in memory what he preached unto them. Man is not delivered eternally by his obedience, but he is delivered here in time by his obedience. Eternal deliverance is by the grace of God and not by man's obedience.
 
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