Is unconditional election biblical?

I don't understand Calvinism, not one bit, so I won't even pretend that I do.

I hear them saying one thing..they say that's not really what they're saying and it's always just been a very unfruitful and intense conversation with most of them. There are some Calvinists that I have had better conversations with yet I still don't get it...But come to find out not all Calvinist even believe in the same exact things...so even more confusing to me...

I don't want to get into a Calvinist argument, but the main thing that I don't like about Calvinism is that it could be used by the devil to be misleading and harmful to people who are under conviction. The devil can use this to say there ain't no need for you to pray because you don't even have a chance...you're not one of those elect.

I think God calls you and then you have to make a decision to take that first step and accept or not. He won't drag you or force you into it, but he will invite you. It's up to you to except it or not...

And before anyone says that I'm saying that we save ourselves...that ain't what I'm saying...God does the saving but we have to accept it. Too many places in the Bible where he gave people the choice, and they either did or didn't accept. He didn't make any of them do it, anywhere I've read anyways. He might of made some of them wish that they did, but he didn't make them. It was still their choice. Jonah swallowed by the whale then decided to listen, Paul knocked off his donkey and then blinded, yet it was still their choice accept or not...

Unconditional election is the second doctrine of grace that I would like to cover.

I would like to say that the interaction on this forum concerning Reformed theology has, in fact, entrenched me even deeper, and incited me to do a quick review on the topic.

In fact, I think the doctrines are even more important now.

Why?

Predestination is a major teaching within Reformed theology. God doesn't simply provide his revelation about irrelevant teachings.

Why is predestination important?

1) it inspires praise. Realizing that God has chosen the elect since the foundation of the earth should cause believers to rejoice. We see Paul referring
to election as a reason for praise in Ephesians 1.
2) it inspires courage. Realizing that God is in control, and is not some weak, emasculated idol who is not in control inspires those who are in
covenant with him.
3) it humbles prideful, sinful man, who is forced to realize that God is the potter, and humans are the clay. That is one of the messages of Romans 9.
Man-centered theology makes me retch.

Anyways, the poll is simply, is unconditional election biblical? I will present several biblical texts to support my contention that it is.

without Christ, you cannot be saved. it is Uncondtio0nal to think other wise

God does not elect specific individuals to be joined to His Church. God has chosen the whole world to be in Christ through the gospel. Those who receive Christ are immediately 'CHOSEN IN HIM while those who reject His grace remain lost until they either repent or die in their sins.

You seem to be looking at God through the lenses of the Calvinistic theory where God chooses the "superior" over the inferior while the rest of the poor slobs go to hell. This wrong understanding of who God is a form of idolatry which reveals a partial God after our own set of beliefs.


Dispensations are man-made. You should look at its history which has nothing to do with God's original word. God relates to us via covenants which is the most incredible news that is presently hidden from the church because we fail to discern what is of God and what isn't.

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yeah im not saying we are entitled but i mean. if the reason they hate God and are enemies of God is because they are born with that total depravity, how is it their fault?

you are right reformed theology does pluck the heart strings. but maybe its because people just have a sense of fairness thats not biblical. i see in john 10:26 Jesus states it clearly. its opposite of what i have been taught and what i say. and it doesnt seem right to me but it says what it does. i look at all translations and in the greek linear too.

I am having difficulty following your thinking. Please be patient with me. If you think that 2 Tim 2:4 ls teaching that God wants all mankind to be saved eternally by coming to a knowledge of the truth, then why the distinction between all mankind and the elect? If you will permit me, I have another question for you. What do you think the significance is for God to change Jacob's name to Israel?

Do you remember our convo (different thread) where I'd pointed out how the esv [etc] (this verse) is not correct?


The text does not state "written BEFORE [pro]".

The text states: "slain FROM [apo]"


...which carries a completely different "meaning".

https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/13-8.htm

When you say "God saves all kinds of men" if you mean all kinds of "elect" men, then I agree, because I do not believe the scriptures to teach that God eternally saves any that are not included in those of his elect. Then that would make 2 Tim 2:4 read "all kinds of elect men". Would it not? If I could persuade you, could you give me your views on Rom 10:1-2-3?

I made a post covering some of "John 6" some time back:

[quoting that entire post (some things might not transfer correctly, the emphasis, etc)]


[note, this post will cover the following passages: Acts 3:22-26; Matthew 10:5-7; John 12:32-33; John 6:41-58 [64][35]; John 7:17; John 17:6-20; 1 John 4:14; 1 John 5:10-12; along with my comments]

Acts 3 [blb]-

22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up to you [this is His earthly ministry BEFORE His death] a prophet like me out from your brothers. You will listen to Him in all things, as many as He might say to you. 23 And it will be that every soul who might not heed that prophet will be utterly destroyed out from the people.’
24 And also all the prophets from Samuel, and those subsequently, as many as have spoken, also have proclaimed these days. 25 You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth will be blessed.’ 26 God, having raised up His servant [that is, in His earthly ministry BEFORE His death], sent Him first to you, blessing you in turning away each of you from your wickednesses.”

[and verse 19 had said, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And He shall send Jesus Christ... Whom..." etc]

[Matt10:5-7 had said, "5 These twelve, Jesus sent forth, having instructed them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles and do not enter into any city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to those being the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And going on, proclaim, saying, ‘The kingdom of the heavens has drawn near!’ (this is not what is to be proclaimed presently [in "this present age [singular]"], but will again in the future trib, in slightly differing phrasing) ]


John 12:32-33 [blb] -

32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself.” 33 Now He was saying this, signifying by what death He was about to die. [compare this with your John 6:44 verse]


John 6:41-58 [blb] - [dialogue with skeptical inquiring multitude (vv.24-29), that though they'd seen Him, still did not believe (v.36) ]

41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him because He said, “I am the bread having come down from heaven.” 42 And they were saying, “Is this not Jesus the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then does He say, ‘I have come down from heaven?’”

43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble with one another. 44 No one is able to come to Me unless the Father, the one having sent Me, draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets: ‘And they will all be taught of God.’ Everyone having heard from the Father and having learned, comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One being from God; He has seen the Father.
47 Truly, truly, I say to you, the one believing has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness and died. 50 This is the bread coming down from heaven, that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread, having come down from heaven. If anyone shall have eaten of this bread, he will live to the age. And also, the bread that I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
52 Therefore the Jews were arguing with one another, saying, “How is this man able to give us His flesh to eat?”
53 Therefore Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you shall have eaten the flesh of the Son of Man, and shall have drunk His blood, you do not have life in yourselves. 54 The one eating My flesh and drinking My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up in the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
56 The one eating My flesh and drinking My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me and I live because of the Father, so also the one feeding on Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread having come down from heaven, not as the fathers ate and died. The one eating this bread will live to the age.”


[the key issue all through is: faith or lack of faith - Jn6:29, 35, 40, 47, 64, and He symbolizes faith as appropriating/eating/drinking Himself - Jn6:35, 51, 53, 58; and then in JOHN 7:17 He emphasized the human response factor: "17 If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching, whether it is from God, or I speak from Myself."]


John 17:6-20 [blb] -

Prayer for the Disciples

6 I revealed Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. [<--He did this personally] They were Yours, and to Me You gave them, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things You have given Me are of You. 8 For the words that You have given Me I have given them, and they received them, and knew truly that I came forth from You; and they believed that You sent Me.
9 I am praying concerning them. I do not pray concerning the world, but concerning those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all things of mine are Yours, and Yours Mine. And I have been glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, and yet they are themselves in the world, and I am coming to You.
Holy Father, keep them in Your name, which You have given Me, that they may be one as we are. 12 When I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me. And I guarded them, and none of them has perished, except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
13 But now I am coming to You, and I speak these things in the world, so that they may have My joy fulfilled within them. 14 I have given them Your word, and the world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I do not ask that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from evil. 16 They are not of the world, as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also sent them into the world; 19 and for them I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.

Prayer for all Believers

20 But I do not ask for these only, but also for those believing in Me through their word, [...]


[so this is showing the distinction between "they have kept your word" / He had [aorist] shown the Father to them, personally (that is, to living disciples the Father had given Him, especially the Apostles), AND "those believing IN ME through their word"--Recall 1Jn4 "14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world." And 1Jn5, "10 The one believing in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one not believing God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one having the Son has life; the one not having the Son of God does not have life."]

[end of quoting that post]

You are misrepresenting Reformed theology, as there is no such teaching that those who are elect are superior to those who are not. In fact, God elects or chooses those who are weak in order to show his glory. This is the plain thrust of 1 Cor 1:26ff.

Non-Reformed people simply cannot reconcile the Scriptural teachings concerning election, and corporate election doesn't do that. Sounds like someone has been listening to Leighton Flowers.

Psalms 53:2 is not talking about "a way", but is talking about people. Eph 1:5, having predestinated "US" is people outside Christ, unless you think the "US" is Christ.

I don't think 2 Tim 2:4 mentions the elect. Paul is telling believers that they should pray for those in authority, because God wants all kinds of men to come to faith, including the type that persecutes them (the rulers).

There may be a different, better explanation but it's not the Arminian one, as I know that God has elected a certain number of individuals to salvation, and those individuals will be saved.

Regarding Jacob's name being changed to Israel:


Genesis 32:29 Gen. 32:28 no longer . . . Jacob, but Israel. Jacob’s personal name changed from one meaning “heel-catcher” or “deceiver” to one meaning “God’s fighter” or “he strives with God” (cf. 35:10). with God and with men. An amazing evaluation of what Jacob had accomplished, i.e., emerging victorious from the struggle. In the record of his life, “strive” did indeed dominate: 1) with his brother Esau (ch. 25–27); 2) with his father (ch. 27); 3) with his father-in-law (ch. 29–31); 4) with his wives (ch. 30); and 5) with God at Peniel (32:28).
(MacArthur Study Notes (ESV))

Genesis 32:28 32:28 Israel. Probably means “he struggles with God” (see NIV text note) but could mean “God struggles.” By replacing Jacob’s name with Israel, God acknowledges that Jacob has “struggled with God” and “overcome.” Jacob begins a new relationship with God. The face-to-face struggle with God changes Jacob, “the deceiver,” into Israel, the man who wrestles with God and survives, although not without personal injury.
(NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible)


I could hold the position that he became regenerated at that point, but I wouldn't really know for sure.

I think the question you are asking is the same as Paul addresses in Romans 9:19.

Paul anticipates that predestination is offensive to the human psyche and says this:


Romans 9:19-24 19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
(ESV)

As you will notice, some people will become extremely angry with the teachings on this topic. Why? They simply don't like the idea that God chooses, and that people believe because they are Jesus' sheep, and not vice versa.

If God didn't elect individuals, and cause them to come to faith, they wouldn't come to faith. Because, inherently mankind is rebellious and fights against God.

However, it is important for believers to understand these principles because it cause them to be humble and not full of pride.

You crack me up

The issue is about whether God elects based on foreseen faith or not. In other words, does man choose himself, or does God choose him?

Because, foreseen faith is simply man choosing himself, and I don't agree with that view.

I don't think it's appropriate to insert "all kinds of elect men" but in essence I hold the position that only the elect will be saved. I don't believe in decisional regeneration. I believe God regenerates the elect, and not others, and that is why they believe. I am consistently Reformed on my theology.

Concerning Romans 10:1-3, Paul is lamenting the fact that all physical Israel would not be saved.

Romans 10:1-3 1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.
(ESV)

No one can be saved if they are not justified by faith. Works of any type will not justify.

Romans 10:2-3 10:2 their zeal is not based on knowledge. Paul’s fellow Jews display a commendable dedication to God, but it is not directed by true insight into the purposes of God. The Gospels repeatedly touch on this issue, as Jews fail to understand that God is revealing himself in Jesus (Matt 12:22–37; John 9:13–41).
10:3 sought to establish their own. Like Paul in his pre-Christian days (Phil 3:6), many Jews viewed their commitment to the law as a basis for their right standing before God. They failed to understand that God has made available his own way of putting them right before him in Christ (9:31–32; 10:5).
(NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible)

Romans 10:1-3 0:1 Salvation is the issue throughout chs. 9-11.
10:2 The Jews' zeal and sincerity does not lead them to salvation. The broader principle is that many sincere, “religious” people are wrong in their beliefs.
10:3 Many Jews did not believe in Christ because they failed to submit to God's righteousness and instead attempted to be righteous before God on the basis of their own works. On the contrast of the two ways to righteousness, see Gal. 3:7–14.
(ESV SB Notes)

Romans 10:1-3 Rom. 10:1 prayer to God for them. Paul’s calling as an apostle to the Gentiles (11:13; Acts 9:15) did not diminish his continual entreaties to God (cf. 1 Tim. 2:1–3) for Israel to be saved (cf. Rom. 1:16; John 4:22; Acts 1:8), or his own evangelistic efforts toward Jews.
Rom. 10:2 zeal for God. Demonstrated by legalistic conformity to the law and fierce opposition to Judaism’s opponents (Acts 22:3 26:4–5; Gal. 1:13–14; Phil. 3:5–6).
Rom. 10:3 being ignorant of the righteousness of God. Ignorant both of God’s inherent righteousness revealed in the law and the rest of the OT (which should have shown the Jews their own unrighteousness) and of the righteousness which comes from him on the basis of faith (see note on 1:17). seeking . . . their own. Based on their conformity to God’s law and often to the less demanding standards of their own traditions (Mark 7:1–13).
(MacArthur Study Notes (ESV))

Here's notes from three of my favorite study bibles, in order of preference.

Read it again. Christ is the way to the heart of the Father (Jn 14:6).

Hmmm maybe mans question should be Why would God choose me? One who is so undeserving.

I remember that particular post. It was one of the posts that was brief and clear enough to read.
The ESV authors have an acceptable rendering of the verse. If you are fluent enough in Greek to contest their translation, and not simply reading Strong's concordance, contact them and perhaps they would bow to your authority.
Election is a solid doctrine.