@TheDivineWatermark give me the non-calvinist interpretation of john 10:26. i love u bro please. why does it say people dont believe because they arent sheep. i know it says it but it makes so many other bible passages just useless like those that say God wants all to be saved and come to knowledge of truth.
Is unconditional election biblical?
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Rather than starting with a theology about predestination or presuppositions I suggest we start by actually looking at what the text says: Below are two of the major texts using the Greek word translated "predestinate"":
Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesian 2:2-6
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the LORD Jesus Christ. 3Praise be to the God and Father of our LORD Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will- 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
So, who is predestinated? in the text here it is "us" which is the saints Paul is writing to
What are they predestinated (chosen) to? to be conformed to Jesus Christ, to be adopted as God's sons, to be holy and blameless
I believe in predestination! Absolutely! I am part of the "us" because I have believed in Jesus Christ as my personal Saviour. And as part of that "us" I know that the Father has made me holy and blameless - and is continuing to make me into his image! Hallelujah!
If you prefer to argue about Calvinism and Arminianism or God's soverignly and free will - that is OK. But sometimes simply looking at what the text itself says gives tremendous blessing and meaning.
Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesian 2:2-6
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the LORD Jesus Christ. 3Praise be to the God and Father of our LORD Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will- 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
So, who is predestinated? in the text here it is "us" which is the saints Paul is writing to
What are they predestinated (chosen) to? to be conformed to Jesus Christ, to be adopted as God's sons, to be holy and blameless
I believe in predestination! Absolutely! I am part of the "us" because I have believed in Jesus Christ as my personal Saviour. And as part of that "us" I know that the Father has made me holy and blameless - and is continuing to make me into his image! Hallelujah!
If you prefer to argue about Calvinism and Arminianism or God's soverignly and free will - that is OK. But sometimes simply looking at what the text itself says gives tremendous blessing and meaning.
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Why would anyone endeavor to discuss the subject when you have announced from the start that you are entrenched in you personal position?
Unconditional election flies in the face of Gods grace. If you are unconditionally elected there is nothing that you must do to be saved and there is nothing that can prevent you from being saved. You become just a pawn in the game of eternal possession between God and the adversary who sees himself as equal to God.
There is much that God must teach you before you can see the error of your position.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Unconditional election flies in the face of Gods grace. If you are unconditionally elected there is nothing that you must do to be saved and there is nothing that can prevent you from being saved. You become just a pawn in the game of eternal possession between God and the adversary who sees himself as equal to God.
There is much that God must teach you before you can see the error of your position.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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7
why indeed
yet it seems some sort of response has been forthcoming for low and behold
8 pages strong now and no signs of stopping
my guess is that if you are a Calvinist, whether or not you refer to yourself as one, you must needs argue your case with anyone within ear shot or post shot, to constantly prove to yourself your authority to refer to all others as possibly saved, but really by an inferior god who may not be god at all
if they only knew how very Jehovah Witness they sound in so doing
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No need to comment more on why decisional Spiritual Birth is so distasteful.
JESUS told us what we MUST do to be saved. Keep every commandment since birth and sell ALL of your possessions and give them to the poor. Who here has done that?
None? Then thank God HE gave us the faith to believe in Him!
JESUS told us what we MUST do to be saved. Keep every commandment since birth and sell ALL of your possessions and give them to the poor. Who here has done that?
None? Then thank God HE gave us the faith to believe in Him!
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BTW you can call me Mr. Ed, I don't mind being compared to a talking horse!
You know how the Bible describes it.
Hebrews 11:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
By Faith We Understand
11 Now faith is the [a]substance of things hoped for, the [b]evidence of things not seen.
The substance we believe in is that Jesus Christ is God in the Flesh. Who died for our sin, and rose to life. That is foolishness to the DEAD, natural man. He cannot comprehend it in his DEAD, natural state.
You know how the Bible describes it.
Hebrews 11:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
By Faith We Understand
11 Now faith is the [a]substance of things hoped for, the [b]evidence of things not seen.
The substance we believe in is that Jesus Christ is God in the Flesh. Who died for our sin, and rose to life. That is foolishness to the DEAD, natural man. He cannot comprehend it in his DEAD, natural state.
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Interesting... wow where to start
Hebrews 12:2 New King James Version (NKJV)
2 looking unto Jesus, the [a]author (ORIGINATOR) and [b]finisher (PERFECTER) of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
I mean this tells you RIGHT here where you got YOUR faith from.
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Unconditional election teaches that individuals are not elected based on unforeseen faith, but are elected, before their creation, by the Sovereign Lord, through his grace.
This election marks the person out for salvation. Christ died for them on the Cross, securing their salvation. Finally, the Holy Spirit applies that salvation to them.
Unconditional election does not deny that believers repent and respond in faith, however, regeneration precedes faith, and resurrects the spiritually dead man to give him new life. He is then able to respond in faith and repentance.
Unconditional election does not fly in the face of God's grace. Unconditional election says that God chooses people, not according to their particular merits, but before they were born and before they had done either bad or good. This is unlike the free-willer position which claims that God elects based on foreseen faith, and not out of grace (or unmerited favor).
In fact, what they are saying is that God elects based on their characteristics which cause them to be noble enough to respond in faith. The Reformed position is that God causes them, through regeneration, to have faith, and to repent, so therefore it is ALL by grace and there is no room for boasting.
My position is not in error, and my purpose is to define the position of Reformed theology in a rational manner. It is a response to people who have called me a fool, and Satanic, on this site. They can see the reasoning behind my position, and whether they agree with it or not, it has been accurately presented to them.
An additional reason for presenting it is because forum members intentionally misrepresent Reformed theology with lies and slanders. The threads set the stage for an intelligent discussion, if people will read them.
Anyways, this is a forum for discussion. Unless the site proclaims Reformed theology to be a heresy, then it's an acceptable discussion topic. There are people here who deny the Trinity and the deity of Christ. These are much more essential Christian doctrines.
This election marks the person out for salvation. Christ died for them on the Cross, securing their salvation. Finally, the Holy Spirit applies that salvation to them.
Unconditional election does not deny that believers repent and respond in faith, however, regeneration precedes faith, and resurrects the spiritually dead man to give him new life. He is then able to respond in faith and repentance.
Unconditional election does not fly in the face of God's grace. Unconditional election says that God chooses people, not according to their particular merits, but before they were born and before they had done either bad or good. This is unlike the free-willer position which claims that God elects based on foreseen faith, and not out of grace (or unmerited favor).
In fact, what they are saying is that God elects based on their characteristics which cause them to be noble enough to respond in faith. The Reformed position is that God causes them, through regeneration, to have faith, and to repent, so therefore it is ALL by grace and there is no room for boasting.
My position is not in error, and my purpose is to define the position of Reformed theology in a rational manner. It is a response to people who have called me a fool, and Satanic, on this site. They can see the reasoning behind my position, and whether they agree with it or not, it has been accurately presented to them.
An additional reason for presenting it is because forum members intentionally misrepresent Reformed theology with lies and slanders. The threads set the stage for an intelligent discussion, if people will read them.
Anyways, this is a forum for discussion. Unless the site proclaims Reformed theology to be a heresy, then it's an acceptable discussion topic. There are people here who deny the Trinity and the deity of Christ. These are much more essential Christian doctrines.
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So, what I need is for you to tell me, in a simple sentence, what is your point?
Is your point that you don't believe God has elected certain individuals from the foundation of the world? In other words, do you deny the principle of election?
If not, what is your point, in one sentence?
I don't want to see all the analysis that you led which forms the basis for your belief at this point. If you deny election based on an alleged mistake in one verse, then my response will be that the translators are more credible than yourself, and consider many more factors than you may even consider, and my secondary response will be that other Scriptures teach election, so an alleged discrepancy in one verse is meaningless.
If you state your assertion up front, a simpleton like me can follow the rest of your analysis. If you simply start delving into details, then I'm not even going to know what to look for. I don't care to crawl down your merry little path an inch at a time to determine whether your view is reasonable or not.
So, my questions would be, do you deny eternal security, and do you deny unconditional election? If you deny unconditional election, then what view do you hold? Again, I don't want 150 Bible verses and then you might give me an answer..I just want to hear the answer.
If you don't communicate with me in a time-efficient manner, I'm not likely to read your remarks because I don't have 3 hours a day to read forum posts. That's the simple facts. I need to do my own individual devotions besides participating here. In fact I suggest that for everyone. In the past I've gotten wrapped up with spending too much time on sites like this and it was disastrous to my spiritual life.
Is your point that you don't believe God has elected certain individuals from the foundation of the world? In other words, do you deny the principle of election?
If not, what is your point, in one sentence?
I don't want to see all the analysis that you led which forms the basis for your belief at this point. If you deny election based on an alleged mistake in one verse, then my response will be that the translators are more credible than yourself, and consider many more factors than you may even consider, and my secondary response will be that other Scriptures teach election, so an alleged discrepancy in one verse is meaningless.
If you state your assertion up front, a simpleton like me can follow the rest of your analysis. If you simply start delving into details, then I'm not even going to know what to look for. I don't care to crawl down your merry little path an inch at a time to determine whether your view is reasonable or not.
So, my questions would be, do you deny eternal security, and do you deny unconditional election? If you deny unconditional election, then what view do you hold? Again, I don't want 150 Bible verses and then you might give me an answer..I just want to hear the answer.
If you don't communicate with me in a time-efficient manner, I'm not likely to read your remarks because I don't have 3 hours a day to read forum posts. That's the simple facts. I need to do my own individual devotions besides participating here. In fact I suggest that for everyone. In the past I've gotten wrapped up with spending too much time on sites like this and it was disastrous to my spiritual life.
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