Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

Interesting discussion going on here - I see Margo74 as someone honestly and openly endeavoring to serve the Lord, admitting sin and failure and struggle, but growing in grace and love.

To say that "we are saved by grace because we cannot obey"? Really, where does the Bible say this? The command to obey is repeated and given throughout the New Testament. Never that I know does the Word say we cannot obey. Surely the Word admits our humanness and our inability to follow God perfectly and completely, but this is quite different from saying we "are saved by grace because we cannot obey. "

If you say something like this I would agree: We are saved by grace and not by works. We have all sinned and were it not for the grace of God none of us would be saved.

To accuse someone of peddling a "works doctrine" and "robbing Jesus of His glory" and "calling Him a failure in His ability to keep a person saved" are quite severe charges! Now perhaps Margo74 has actually said these things? Or, is she being interpreted this way because she does not believe in OSAS?

Margo, do you believe in a works doctrine? do you believe you help Jesus keep yourself saved? do you believe that Jesus is a failure because He is not able to keep you saved? (Do you believe these or have you said these things?)

Aaaah, i wish you were also a breath of fresh air.

1 Tim 4:9This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. 10That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
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15Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. 16Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO to all those questions. I do not believe in OSAS as many do. I truly believe there is more to it than just believing. Believing that Jesus Christ is the ONE and ONLY Way to Heaven is a MUST but only a first step. IF we believe, we must ENDURE believing no matter what. Once one loses belief and does not find it again, one loses all. IF we believe, we must love Christ. IF we love Christ, we must do what He Himself said: "IF you love ME, [THEN] keep my commandments" (the two great commandments which cover all things). Of course, we may strive to obey but we fail to do so from time to time and when we do, we have two choices: repent and be forgiven, our sins forgotten, and no punishment suffered OR don't repent and keep on sinning. If we repent genuinely and God knows if we do or not as He alone can read our hearts, we shall have eternal life. If we sin and refuse to repent, we shall have the lake of fire. Again, as I have repeated over and over, God wants none to perish but many will because they will put their will ahead of God's. God will force no one to come to Him or stay with Him. That has to be our choice. Salvation is a gift to ALL from God. As with all gifts, it can be accepted or rejected. If accepted, it can be kept forever or it can be lost by sinning and going one's own wrongful way as did the prodigal son and then as did the prodigal son, one can repent aka turn back to God aka change back to doing God's Will. If accepted and then lost by sinning, one may refuse to repent and just do his/her own will and abandon God and His Will and if one does so and never repents, one is choosing by his/her own free will to be condemned to the lake of fire for eternity. The latter would not be God's wish or God's doing but God ALLOWS us to make our own free will choices and to take the good or bad consequences of such. IF anyone ends up in the lake of fire for eternity, it will be because he/she remained an unbeliever or he/she believed but disobeyed and refused to repent. God will be like the prodigal son's father who loved his son but let him go his way and kept on loving him, missing him, wanting him back, but never forcing him to return. His son repented and returned to his father who welcomed him with open loving arms and celebrated his return as does Christ over finding one lost sheep and the prodigal son's father explained all this celebration as being because his son had been lost but now was found and had been dead but was now alive. This is the exact parallel to how God treats His prodigal children. Like the prodigal son, some of us prodigal children repent and return to God, our Heavenly Father, but some do not repent and do not return. ALL were offered the gift of Salvation and ALL could have it and keep it but EACH has to decide IF he/she will believe, love, obey, repent when he/she fails to obey and we all fail from time to time. If we remain saved, it is because we submitted to God and His Will. If we do not remain saved, it is because we chose to go our own way and never repent aka return and such is entirely on our heads as God did not make us do such and nor did Satan or anyone else .. it was our choice and ours alone .. no one to blame but ourselves. I do hope this will have others understand what I am saying and what I truly mean and believe as such is well supported in God's Holy Spirit inspired Word and Truth. Eternal life in heaven is for the victorious. Anyone who would be forced to go to heaven when he/she has CHOSEN to sin and not repent is not victorious and did not endure in doing God's Will but, instead, his/her own sinful unrepenting will and he/she perishes for such.

So you are looking to save yourself based on the merits of your performance? Salvation by works? In regards to 1 Timothy 4:16, we are not passive in perservering in our faith, but it's not in our own power that we perservere. (1 Corinthians 1:8; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; 1 Peter 1:5) God alone saves, but "in a sense" we save ourselves and others through perserverance in sound doctrine, as we continue to believe the gospel and are used as God's instruments to bring about the salvation of others through preaching the gospel to them as well.

If you fell into a well with no way out and someone threw down and rope and pulled you out, "in a sense" you can say that you "saved yourself" by choosing to grab and hold onto the rope until that person pulled you out, but ultimately, the person who pulled you out of the well saved you and ultimately, it is Jesus Christ who saves us.

So you are looking to save yourself based on the merits of your performance? Salvation by works? In regards to 1 Timothy 4:16, we are not passive in perservering in our faith, but it's not in our own power that we perservere. (1 Corinthians 1:8; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; 1 Peter 1:5) God alone saves, but "in a sense" we save ourselves and others through perserverance in sound doctrine, as we continue to believe the gospel and are used as God's instruments to bring about the salvation of others through preaching the gospel to them as well.

If you fell into a well with no way out and someone threw down and rope and pulled you out, "in a sense" you can say that you "saved yourself" by choosing to grab and hold onto the rope until that person pulled you out, but ultimately, the person who pulled you out of the well saved you and ultimately, it is Jesus Christ who saves us.

So, do we 'save ourselves' 'in a sense'? is that what you are saying?

We ABSOLUTELY cannot obey!

THAT is the whole point as to why Jesus had to come. Once we are born again, we have the Holy Spirit, and a NEW heart to help us obey. But we will NEVER FULLY obey, until we leave this body of death, and are given our incorruptible body.

Notice we were DEAD, but it was GOD THAT MADE US ALIVE!! Think about that. We were dead, UNABLE to obey, and the HE MADE US ALIVE!
Ephesians 2:1-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.



Praise Jesus!

I do not know how mailmandan will respond but my response would be that only God can and does save BUT only IF we co-operate and submit to His Will aka Way to be saved. If we refuse to do as God commands, we refuse to let Him save us. We let go of the rope by turning to sin and not turning back. Sin leads to death and God leads to life and repentance returns us to God and life. No repentance keeps us on the path of sin leading to certain death. God offers - we accept. God gives - we receive. God keeps us - we stay with Him. Without our appropriate response, God's offer and His gift and His keeping us will not come to fruition, not by His failure but by ours as for us to choose death over life or lake of fire over heaven is most certainly failure on our part, not God's.

Rev 14:
12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

God does not cause people to keep/obey His commands, if He does, then He failed Adam and whole humanity (God forbid).

God reads our hearts and knows how much we believe in Him, love Him, try to obey Him, repent when we disobey. Just as healing of disease becomes easier the more we take the medicine prescribed as prescribed, the easier obedience becomes to God's Will, not our will, the more we do obey and the more readily we repent when we fail to obey. Repentance restores and strengthens and works as a healer in us so we more easily and more effectively endure in fighting against and overcoming sinfulness. GodFULLness is directly opposite to sinFULLness. We must choose to be FULL of God or FULL of sin as we cannot serve both - God and sin .. One or the other .. not both.

So, do we 'save ourselves' 'in a sense'? is that what you are saying?

How does a 3 year old get saved?

When answering the above, remember Jesus said, "if you don't become like little children, you will not inherit the kingdom of God".

I want to inherit the kingdom of God like a little child, please explain.

We do not try to obey Him, we MUST obey Him.

John 13:34A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so also you must love one another.

I really believe the parable of the prodigal son clearly parallels we children of our Heavenly Father. When we go our own way, not by God's Will, we are prodigal children. God will allow us to go our own way and will keep on loving us and wanting us to come back to Him, but He won't force us. He will let aka ALLOW us to do our own thing but IF we later choose to come back to Him, He will welcome us with open loving arms and celebrate our return because we "were lost but now found" and "dead but now alive". By going our own way and choosing to sin, we chose to become lost and dead and God allowed such to happen but did not want that nor make it happen. IF we later repented aka returned to God, we were now found, not lost, and alive, not dead. God gives all but we must receive His all and not all receive it coz they choose not to. I am not talking about working aka earning Heaven as obeying is not work but, rather, simply choosing to do God's Will (and I do try but don't always manage, so I repent, and get back on track) and as with the person in the well, that person is saved by the one who pulls him/her out of the well but that person cannot save him/her if he/she does not take hold of the rope. God saves us but only if we take hold of the rope He throws to us and that rope is submitting to Him and His Word, His Truth, His Will. If we submit to such, He can and will save us. If we do not submit to such, He can't save us and such is not His failure, but our failure. The road to heaven and the gate are narrow and only a "few" find them. We know where the road and gate are but we must choose to stay on the road and enter through the gate. God will guide us through such IF we stay with Him but IF we choose to travel the broad road, God will ALLOW us to and we shall be choosing to end up in the lake of fire. God can and will save us IF we let Him and not all let Him. He WILL never force anyone to be saved. Again, it would be like doctor and patient. A doctor can cure some conditions we experience but only IF we follow his/her advice. We will not be healed IF we choose to ignore what the doctor advises. So, God can and will save us IF we do as He says - believe, love, obey, repent when disobedient.

We do not try to obey Him, we MUST obey Him.

John 13:34A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so also you must love one another.

I do not know how mailmandan will respond but my response would be that only God can and does save BUT only IF we co-operate and submit to His Will aka Way to be saved. If we refuse to do as God commands, we refuse to let Him save us. We let go of the rope by turning to sin and not turning back. Sin leads to death and God leads to life and repentance returns us to God and life. No repentance keeps us on the path of sin leading to certain death. God offers - we accept. God gives - we receive. God keeps us - we stay with Him. Without our appropriate response, God's offer and His gift and His keeping us will not come to fruition, not by His failure but by ours as for us to choose death over life or lake of fire over heaven is most certainly failure on our part, not God's.

We do not try to obey Him, we MUST obey Him.

John 13:34A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so also you mustlove one another.

I like that answer but do not fully agree. God CAN and WILL work in and through us ONLY "IF" we allow Him to do so by our submitting to His Will being done, not our own when our will is not in accordance with His. Obeying Christ's two great commandments is showing our love for Him as He Himself said, "IF you love Me, [THEN] keep My commandments". So, we must believe in Christ and we must love Him and IF we love Him, THEN we must keep His commandments. Obeying those two great commandments and doing God's Will, not our own, IS NOT WORK. We are not earning salvation as it is a free gift offered to ALL but not accepted by ALL and not kept by ALL who accepted it. We are to be in a relationship - a loving relationship - with God and all relationships take two to make them work. God will always do His part but we must do our part, too, or the relationship will fail. God loves sinners but He abhors evil aka sin and when we sin and we all do, we are turning away from God as He hates sin. Then we have the choice to turn back aka repent or not. God will never force us to come to Him or to stay with Him as what would be the point for Him and for us IF He did so. Imagine a heaven of eternal life filled with people who did not wish to be there but were forced to be there and imagine how God would feel in knowing the people there were only there coz He forced them to be there. God wants that none should perish but He knows many will perish and it is up to each of us to be saved or to perish. To be saved, we must accept and keep the free gift of salvation offered us and to do so, we must believe in Christ as the only way to get this gift and we must THEN love Him, obey Him, and repent when we fail to obey and we do fail to obey. Obedience IS NOT works and not earning salvation. It is simply choosing to do God's Will, not our own, and to submit to Him, so He can live in us and we in Him and so He can work in and through us. Belief, Love, Obedience, Submission are all necessary to be and to remain saved. Repentance restores any loss due to our failing in any of those necessary things. Sooooooooooo, live for, with, and in God and repent when you slip in such or don't repent and instead perish. There is a lake of fire in which are Satan and his demons .. unbelievers .. AND once saved believers who chose to walk away from their salvation by sinning and not repenting. There will be no unrepentant sinners in Heaven. Such would be impossible and would defeat the whole purpose of the Kingdom of Heaven. See about who will not be in the New Jerusalem when Christ sets up His Kingdom on Earth for 1000 years and then for all eternity.

And what's your point?
If all men were justified and given life at Christ's death on the cross and only a few will stand saved in the end, what happened to the rest? Did they lose their justification or not? is it because of what they did or failed to do?

You obey to abide in Christ or the love of Christ, you don't obey to gain it. I'll repeat one more time, obedience is abiding in God's love, not obtaining it.

Adam will always be a perfect example of how obedience or lack of it works.