Trinity haters on CC

One person two attributes. Father (greater position )and Son( lesser position ) .The government of God two. Simple, simple.

Loving authority + Willing submision = Peace and bleesing.

The verse does not mean that Christ has the treasure in an earthen vessel at all. Paul says, "we have", not "he has".

So you have one person praying to himself, and depending and trusting in himself for deliverance?

Pretty funny

I agree that the Son is functionally subordinate (in terms of role) but not essentially subordinate (lesser "essence" than the Father).

They are co-essential, sharing the same essence.

The Trinity doctrine is a fantastic teaching...God showed us exactly what it means to be the perfectly obedient and submissive child of God through Jesus, yet Jesus is God himself is God and worthy of all worship and praise.

In fact if you don't honor the Son, you don't honor the Father.

Regarding Oneness theology, I would suggest folks view the debate between James White and Roger Perkins. I think it will be easy to tell which one is more coherent.

Regarding Arian theology I would suggest folks view the debate between James White and Joe Ventilacion from Iglesia Ni Cristo. He presents a very solid explanation of the Triune God in this debate.

The hilarious thing is that Iglesia Ni Cristo members are applauding and thinking their champion has delivered knockdown blows when it's obvious he is incoherent.

Both are on Youtube.

I remember meeting some coworker who was part of UPCI. He was very forthright in expressing his Oneness Pentecostal beliefs. I liked the guy but it was so sad he was caught up in their nonsense. It was as bad as the cult I belonged to.

its not a salvation issue. The mystery of godliness can be explained in more than one way

Yes we honor both working together as one.

Not lower essence. God is one. Lower position by reason of suffering. . . not as a I will but as us. (two attributes) Three which seems to denote the end of a matter. Three times a cry, like with Jonas. Three times strength was sent to finish the work.

The unseen food of the Son of man, Jesus that the disciples at first did not know of. To do the will of the unseen father and finish it.

The father worked in the Son the same way he works in us. Father take this cup. Yet Jesus performed it God worked in Him who was without sin to show the perfect work that was working in him to both will and do the god pleasure of the father.. . . below.

Jesus did it without murmurring. We can be the murmurers and complainers.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputingshilipian2:13-14


As far as praying it was for our benefit .The son of man Jesus always heard the voice of the father,. You could say. the Lord said to my Lord .. God contemplating out loud .

No difference same body of death, corrupted flesh and blood. It was a must in order to do what the written law that kills. . could not do … forgive. The Holy Spirit was poured out on the flesh of Jesus in order to put away sin in the flesh of a believer .

A demonstration as a parable below the father and Son working together. . Using sweat to show he was drinking of the cup of suffering as if the sweat was literal drops of blood.


Luke 22: 43-44 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.


Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Took away the sting of death the consequence of the letter of law.


We have that treasure in these earthen bodies of death but that power to be forgiven is not of us. Just as it was not reckoned after the flesh of Jesus that he inherited from his mother.

The power is not after the flesh which Jesus says profits for nothing. No such thing as "holiness of the flesh". That's a Catholic and Jehovah Witness idea. . Walking after the temporal what the eyes see. . . flesh and blood. We do not wrestle against flesh and blood and neither are we affirmed after it. The kingdom of God does not come by observation. No one has received the final reward a new incorruptible body (not corrupted flesh and blood)

Romans 1:3-5 King James Version (KJV) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name

Your explanations are not coherent to me, so I can't help. I doubt you want help anyways.

I will simply state that I believe actively denying Jesus' deity and the Trinity is a salvation issue. With regards to the Trinity, I don't think it affects salvation if you are unable to explain the Trinity, but aren't actively denying it. I don't see anyone being saved without believing Jesus is God. Even as a cultist, I believed Jesus was truly God.

That is not correct at all. If fact, it's heretical. The Holy Spirit "poured out on the flesh of Jesus" did not put away sin in the flesh of a believer. First, Jesus' flesh was not sinful; second, nothing about Jesus was sinful; and third, only the blood of Jesus poured out at the cross put away sin for the believer.

Meaningless bafflegab.

When Jesus was praying in the garden before His arrest, the sweat and blood were simply evidence of extreme emotional distress, not parables. You're spiritualizing where you should just be reading.

what Jesus didnt do was give a formal teaching on the triity, like i have explained already, three times now. "elements" are not a formal teaching.
it did develop over time, about 600 yerars after Jesus.

according to man, not scripture

did you know Samuel means "name of the Most High" is the Most High name Samuel? did you know angels were worshiped? did you know David was worshiped, did you know abraham worshiped a Hittite king?

i think i kow what you mean now, so when someone talks about Constantine killing his wife, son, sunworship, and all the rest, since those things are 100 percent true and can not be refuted we call them a crazy conspiracy theory in order to divert people from those facts. sometimes it takes a little deception and showmanship!

Theological Clarity:
The son is functionally subordinate but not essentially subordinate...
I don't think we can speak with any more theological precision than this.

Trinity & Salvation:
I don't think a misunderstanding of the trinity is a salvation issue,
but it's often symptomatic of other misunderstandings which may be genuine salvation issues.

A. There are many saved believers who are good faithful Christians, who understand that Christ is God, but have a peculiar understanding of the trinity.
B. However, almost every cult denies the trinity as a core belief.
C. So to misundestand the trinity is probably like skating on thin ice over deep water...
you may be ok, but I wouldn't recommend it to a friend.

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I could care less what it sounds like....it is factual based upon Hebrew grammar......accept it or not....!!

If it's modalist it's false.

The bishops at Nicea rendered decisions, not Constantine. Many of these bishops were men who were persecuted, and lost body parts in the process.

Sunday observers are not worshiping the sun, and the typical spiel concerning Nimrod, Semiramis and Tammuz is nonsense that arose from Hislop's Two Babylons.

You've probably heard it a dozen times, but if you want to claim Sunday observers are worshiping the Sun, logically you must accept that Sabbathkeepers are worshiping Saturn.

John 5:
5 After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
2 Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, in Aramaic[a]called Bethesda,[b] which has five roofed colonnades. 3 In these lay a multitude of invalids—blind, lame, and paralyzed.[c] 5 One man was there who had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lying there and knew that he had already been there a long time, he said to him, “Do you want to be healed?” 7 The sick man answered him, “Sir, I have no one to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, and while I am going another steps down before me.” 8 Jesus said to him, “Get up, take up your bed, and walk.” 9 And at once the man was healed, and he took up his bed and walked.
Now that day was the Sabbath. 10 So the Jews[d] said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not lawful for you to take up your bed.” 11 But he answered them, “The man who healed me, that man said to me, ‘Take up your bed, and walk.’” 12 They asked him, “Who is the man who said to you, ‘Take up your bed and walk’?” 13 Now the man who had been healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, as there was a crowd in the place. 14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.” 15 The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had healed him. 16 And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”
Jesus Is Equal with God
18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
The Authority of the Son
19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father[e] does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him

By the way, the Jews knew what Jesus was claiming. They knew that God doesn't rest on the Sabbath, but continues to uphold the world. Jesus was saying that he does exactly like his Father does, and he works on the Sabbath, too. In fact, Jesus as YHVH continued to uphold the universe even while a man on earth. He didn't cease being YHVH.

Additionally, as I have said, those who don't honor the Son just as they honor the Father have a serious issue. They aren't honoring the Father either.

I agree that real, saved believers can be confused about the Trinity but not antagonistic and accusatory toward the Church. Cults aren't the same....they are seeking to undermine Christianity, often claiming to be the true faith.

If someone rejects the Trinity, even if they are saved, they cannot understand some deeper truths such as union with Christ. Doctrines are not held in isolation. They work in tandom. If one doctrine is off, it often affects multiple doctrines.

Meaningless bafflegab. . . unknown sign gift?

LOL Your'e literalizing the parable which without Christ spoke. . . hiding the unseen gospel understanding from the literalist..

Its the beginning of the three days and nights demonstration, the belly of the whale, Hell a living suffering. The scripture uses the word sweat a form of water to indicate a person is working pouring out this spirit life.

Beginning in the garden the Son of man. Jesus suffering unto death (not dead) as never to rise again, as the father poured out His cup wrath on Jesus
Luke 22:43-45 Then an angel from heaven came to help him. Jesus was full of pain; he struggled hard in prayer. Sweat dripped from his face like drops of blood falling to the ground. When he finished praying, he went to his followers. He found them asleep, worn out from their grieving.

Sweat dripped from his face like drops of blood falling to the ground. Not literal blood dropping. Not literal drops of blood falling to the ground. While the life of the flesh is in the blood that life is spiritual. . . not of flesh and blood.


Water and blood are used that way in other parables to represent the unseen work of the Spirit pouring out His Spirit life in jeopardy of His own Spirit as the Spirit of Christ did perform.

David understood the metaphor. Water is sometimes used with blood to indicate the unseen works of the Holy Spirt like with Christ who poured out his Spirit life as if it water. Water or blood to represent the unseen work of pouring out his own Spirit in jeopardy of it.

2 Samuel 23:16-18 So the Three Heroes a fought their way through the Philistine army and got some water from the well near the city gate in Bethlehem. They took it to David, but he refused to drink it.

David as type of the Son of man, Jesus refused to stand in the holy unseen place of the father.

He poured it on the ground as an offering to the Lord. David said, “Lord, I cannot drink this water. It would be like drinking the blood of the men who risked their (spirit )lives for me.” This is why David refused to drink the water. The Three Heroes did many brave things like that.

Like I said, could care less what you think.....it is the inspired grammatically correct understanding of the word LIVES......deal with it!

More of your mockery. Well, I ain't your judge.

You're being absolutely ridiculous. Do you honestly think that the gospel is hidden from me, a Christian?

No it doesn't. Sweat means sweat, from physical effort. That's it, that's all.

Whether it was literal blood or not is beside the point. He was in physical distress, pouring His heart out in prayer to His Father.

The event in the garden is history, not parable.

Why would I not want help? A clear distinction between the Son of man Jesus, and the Son of God must be made.

The cultist would make the Son of man, Jesus as if he was Eternal Spirit not seen . . as if the power to resurrect was after the things seen flesh and blood. No such thing as Holiness of the flesh. Salvation is not recognized after his birth .That's for the cultist that want to make God into a man as us. But rather as the ressurection the power of God .The flesh profits for nothing.

Roman 1:3-5) By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
And declared to be the Son of God with power, (not the Son of man no power)according to the spirit of holiness, (no such the as the flesh of holiness) by the resurrection from the deadnot by the birth of Mary)

Jesus Christ as the Son of God is eternal God. Jesus as the Son of man is a man .

It was necessary his flesh was corruptible to prove he was man. A Spirit does not have flesh and bone