Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

I think I do understand what you believe. The gift isn't offered to anyone who hasn't already attained it therefore it can't be lost. Problem is that negates the whole freewill thing. And if it is given to all who have already attained and no one else, WHAT is the point of this whole exercise? Why doesn't God just wipe out the bad and let us move on already? You believe He already knows. If it isn't by what we do and it is all by what He does, ONCE again what is the point. It shouldn't be "to whomsoever will" it should be "to those I have already chosen and to the rest of you "Psyche", what a bummer, it was all set up before and really there is no free will, I chose for you. Or do I have that wrong? Maybe if someone would lay it all out, all together, that would help with the misunderstandings.

Greetings Y,

Thanks for sharing this again!

I will read it every time!

You help me put that all together, which is a very important detail!

BIG Thank You!

Do you mind if I copy that into a study folder I have? If I ever cite it I will cite you.

SG

About the free will, this is explained by the Father's foreknowledge, we are not pre-programmed, Jesus just "knows His sheep":
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

It's like you know your good friend, and because you know them, you can predict with certainty what they'll do.
(How much more for God who has supernatural mind, and knows every intricate detail about us)
So the predestination vs the free will is reconciled by God being able to foresee into the future, being eternal God.

About why does God also bring the wicked into the world alongside the righteous, that is a very good question.
Maybe because He wanted them to have an experience of life and free will, even though He knew they would still choose to hate Him ultimately. Maybe He had to bring them into the world to love them still anyway, because He is the God of love. It's deep stuff to pray about.

So how do we stop those to whom it is not promised from being promised? By not teaching it. The truly OSAS don't go around professing it or claiming it they go around teaching salvation can be lost.

All of them are absolutely reliable, but there are differences. Matthew, Mark. Luke and John reported what the Lord Jesus said, to the Jews, before His ascension to Heaven, while Paul relayed Christ's message, to Christians, after the ascension.

For almost 30 years I learned the same thing you learned: Jesus and Paul preached the exact same thing. If there seems to be a conflict, the reader must resort to hermeneutics -- and sometimes to quantum physics -- to make Jesus and Paul match.

Jesus told the man cured of leprosy to offer sacrifices; He told His disciples to obey the scribes and the Pharisees; He told the young rich ruler to keep the commandments; He taught (through His personal example) observance of the Sabbath; He taught His disciples to sell their possessions and give alms; He said it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter Heaven; etc.

What did Paul say about the above things? He said we are not under the Law, and regarding the rich here is what he said:

Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.

I think you are mistaken here, because OSAS (we on the forum that do follow Jesus, not megachurches) do not teach salvation can be lost. We do teach eternal security in God as the Scriptures say. We also teach it goes with obedience as the fruit of faith. We cannot teach anything different, such as loss of salvation, because this is not the Gospel... we must only teach the Gospel. People who imagine they can abuse the blood of Grace are fools and will receive due punishment.

I will respect your belief, as I hope you will mine. We as teachers, will be the first to be judged because we will not only be responsible for ourselves, but for all doctrine we teach, and to all who follow it, be it truth or deception. I know there will never be a soul, standing in front of God and saying "but I thought I was saved" that will have anything to do with me and my teachings. Only those who have taught such, will be judged on that.

I will have taught when God says "I will not be mocked" that's what He means. And off the top of my head, if you deny, He will deny, The wedding guest cast into utter darkness, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, the virgins with out enough oil, those who take the mark of the beast, I never knew you, those who fall back, To those who "overcome", if you then I will, may, might not perish, who believes, hears, By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not, the warnings go on and on and on.

But lets not fight, God gives to all what measure He will. When the time comes, and the two witnesses are sent, they will give us all we need. As long as we have on the full gospel armor to withstand the fiery darts of Satan and are for God to use as He sees fit. We are responsible to teach the truth. You seem to feel you are doing so, and so do I. Maybe, just maybe, we are each teaching a different group with a different purpose of Gods Will and that is why He tells us not to be divided. His ways are not our ways. We should pray we do His will, and do it. I am solid in my foundation and study. You must be also. One of us may be mistaken. We shall definitely find out. Peace to you

We are not fighting, we are talking. You are my family in Jesus.
I think I am not completely understanding you. If God is that big to state His gifts are irrevocable and He wanted us to know, and revealed this to us the Scriptures, it would seem He wants it preached. (And that He has the situation under control, I'd think.)
I think the first problem comes with the distinction between Who are the Gentiles? Who is Judah? Who is Israel? Who is Jacob? Who are the Kenites? The Irrevocable gifts are promised to Israels to Gods elect, just them. Do you agree?

But you are implying that we should preach contrary to the Scriptures, and tell people that salvation can be lost, instead.
What am I asking that is contrary to the Scripture? God tells time after time after time, it can be lost. How is that contrary? Well, it may be contrary to the doctrine you teach, but that does not make it contrary to scripture. Do you see how in the way you pose your question there is a bit of deception by assuming something is a truth of Gods when it may only be a truth as you see it? Please understand, I am just trying to get us on an even playing field and I don't do well with that sort of stuff. I always feel I am being manipulated. My mom did that all my life, but she said she did n't know it. So I must believe that can be true.

How are you helping the Kingdom of God, if you preach contrary to the truth in the Gospel? Do you see it here? You making a statement posed as a question? I try hard not to do that, for the lambs, you know?

(I am imploring you to just consider what you're suggesting to do here...) You do not need to implore me. There will be no way I will ever teach a lamb OSAS. A mature sheep who is set and sure, and deep into the Word yes, but when it is being given to those who do not have the faith to know the truth of it, then it can become a lie. Jesus saves. I agree.

And this is also the cause of needless contention among us... OSAS believing brethren, all that I've ran into so far, do teach that the godly life and fruits of Holy Spirit shall follow those who believe, which is opposite to "i can live how i want and be secure".
One seriously needs to be brazen wicked and not fear God to preach such.

And since I do not agree with it, they keep doing it, knowing when posing the question, it is just like lying. But I don't think they see that. But, that law that was written inside, I get real bad convictions from the spirit so I can't constantly do that, like they can.

There will be no way I will ever teach a lamb OSAS. A mature sheep who is set and sure, and deep into the Word yes, but when it is being given to those who do not have the faith to know the truth of it, then it can become a lie.

I have been coming here a couple months. I know nothing of "religions of the world" I study the word of God.

Work for salvation?? The thought had never even crossed my mind to do that. But I am now accused of it all the time by these " OSASed" and even after I have denied it, more than once, more than twice, more than 20, I could go way up in numbers here, but they don't care. It doesn't not matter who I am or what truth I tell. . And since I do not agree with it, they keep doing it, knowing when posing the question, it is just like lying. But I don't think they see that. But, that law that was written inside, I get real bad convictions from the spirit so I can't constantly do that, like they can.
Then they call me names, tell me I am not really saved or I need to invite Jesus into my life. And the ganging up, just like wolves. And this is how they are promoting this doctrine of God?? This IS the spirit the OSAS are putting out, at least from what I have experienced. There are no fruits of "the spirit" that I recognize of the Lords. The saving grace of it all, is all the "guests" who come and read. For I know Gods Truth will shine good and bright and all will be turned to their fathers. With that I must go.

So am I seriously brazen, and wicked?? Do I not fear God?? Do you see why I preach what I preach?

It seems both sides are doing it in this whole debate. I was just praying about the miscommunications, the whole forum looks to me like Tower of Babel just crashed, nobody understands nobody anymore. It's kind of insane as you must have noticed.
I get convicted from the Holy Spirit too, "for every son that He receives, also chastises". This is how I know I am His child and born of Him.
And right, this is not works salvation...


There are toxic people in both groups.


The brazen and wicked I said not about you, but about the teaching: "i can live how i want and be secure".
We don't teach such here... at least not the "regular" members. So I think you're preaching to the choir in that sense, we're on the same team.


But the Scripture says the gifts of God are irrevocable. If this is so, then it is not possible for the gift of salvation to be lost. God does not change His mind about setting out to save you. He will make a mighty war. If you received it by faith in Jesus, Jesus works it out and perfects you. I think you make mistake here saying it can be lost.
Calling people to repent, or get saved from unregenerate state, is something completely different and legit.


I disagree. I had the opposite experience. Surrendering to Jesus changed my life significantly but it was very steep and constant stress and fear (bad kind of fear) because I thought I could "lose" salvation. It was an awful life. To teach a little sheep that is to teach them to be in chronic agony! There were many times I could not sleep and agonized, in fear that God would disown me. It's not right to teach it to anyone. When I received - allowed myself to finally receive - the UNCONDITIONAL love of Jesus by believing eternal security I made some really big spiritual breakthroughs. A lot more joy and peace...

I am not saying you are not saved, or anything like that.
Where we disagree is what you want to teach others. One set of beliefs for you, yet another set for others.

About why does God also bring the wicked into the world alongside the righteous, that is a very good question.
Maybe because He wanted them to have an experience of life and free will, even though He knew they would still choose to hate Him ultimately. Maybe He had to bring them into the world to love them still anyway, because He is the God of love. It's deep stuff to pray about.

I have one question. 2Tim 2:21

How is a Christian purged?

About the free will, this is explained by the Father's foreknowledge, we are not pre-programmed, Jesus just "knows His sheep":
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

It's like you know your good friend, and because you know them, you can predict with certainty what they'll do.
(How much more for God who has supernatural mind, and knows every intricate detail about us)
So the predestination vs the free will is reconciled by God being able to foresee into the future, being eternal God.

About why does God also bring the wicked into the world alongside the righteous, that is a very good question.
Maybe because He wanted them to have an experience of life and free will, even though He knew they would still choose to hate Him ultimately. Maybe He had to bring them into the world to love them still anyway, because He is the God of love. It's deep stuff to pray about.

I think you are mistaken here, because OSAS (we on the forum that do follow Jesus, not megachurches) do not teach salvation can be lost. We do teach eternal security in God as the Scriptures say. We also teach it goes with obedience as the fruit of faith. We cannot teach anything different, such as loss of salvation, because this is not the Gospel... we must only teach the Gospel. People who imagine they can abuse the blood of Grace are fools and will receive due punishment.

Remember that Paul says "the law was added because of transgression", but the laws above given at mt. Sinai weren't added because of any transgressions. There was no transgression that prompted the giving those initial laws that are part of the sinai covenant.

...but there was a specific transgression that occurred after Moses was busy getting instructions for the tabernacle...

Greetings SW,

So well written, I appreciate the concept of Predestination and I agree with it, from Gods Perspective, since everything, even the end from the beginning is already known. Isa 46:10.

The Eternal, not being constrained by time alone gives Him the opportunity to "know" all things. The finite mind can contemplate the "Eternals" ways and should, but without divine insight we can not even scratch the surface. One might argue that the word "Eternal" is not just a concept of "Without Time", "without" defined not as "not having", but "exterior to". With that in mind, is there anything "Eternal" but The Heavenly Father" Himself? I capitalize "Eternal" because essentially He alone is "Eternal" having no beginning. I consider Enoch and how he "Walked with God" and God "took" him. Not too dissimilar to us today thanks be to Yahshua through The Heavenly Father and His Holy Spirit.

Back to Predestination and "the wicked". It is hard to conceptualize that when God formed The Adam Gen 2:7, He knew already what Adam would do. But can He close His eyes to His foresight? Does He ever? Dunno!

But, is that to say because God, when He had the lump of clay in His hand that He was forming The Adam from, whom He Knew would sin, that He hesitated? If God hesitated with that lump, then His foreknowledge would betray His actions it seems to me. Perhaps His foreknowledge does not so much inform His creative actions, since that would seemingly violate the "free will" He created and allows, as much as it simply informs Him, giving new dimensions to "I knew you in the womb". I could go on, but I hesitate because I simply do not know. Either way, free will is there, perhaps the lump of clay was not made into The Adam pre-ordained to do as Adam did, but Fore-Known to do what he would do. So if God could close His eyes to any one of our futures would He know what we would do? If not "fore-Known", if so "fore-ordained". Man has his plans but God ordains his steps. God places the Kings/authorities, but based upon His foreknowledge and His intent.

Jer 31:20 KJV Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD.

I consider The "Eternal" in the above and try to reconcile His foreknowledge to it. Or;

Isa 42:8-9 KJV I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. (9) Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Isa 45:21-23 KJV Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. (22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.


Perhaps a contemplation of The Eternal can be change a mans mind. Perhaps knowing the significance of "Free Will" pales in comparison to the humbling knowledge of knowing God "Foreknows" everything?

What was Pauls saying:

Rom 9:21 KJV Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonour?

Did God in fact Pre-Ordain each lump? Or did He Fore-Know each lump and place them carefully where He willed them to be in order to accomplish His purposes? Dunno. Could he Fore-Ordain each lump and still maintain the integrity of "free will"? Is time itself the definition of "free will"? Dunno.

It's a marvelous thing though that our Heavenly Father, who is all powerful, all knowing, is a Just, Loving, Merciful, Wise God!

How blessed are we!

SG