Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[SoulWeaver]

I think I do understand what you believe. The gift isn't offered to anyone who hasn't already attained it therefore it can't be lost. Problem is that negates the whole freewill thing. And if it is given to all who have already attained and no one else, WHAT is the point of this whole exercise? Why doesn't God just wipe out the bad and let us move on already? You believe He already knows. If it isn't by what we do and it is all by what He does, ONCE again what is the point. It shouldn't be "to whomsoever will" it should be "to those I have already chosen and to the rest of you "Psyche", what a bummer, it was all set up before and really there is no free will, I chose for you. Or do I have that wrong? Maybe if someone would lay it all out, all together, that would help with the misunderstandings.

About the free will, this is explained by the Father's foreknowledge, we are not pre-programmed, Jesus just "knows His sheep":
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

It's like you know your good friend, and because you know them, you can predict with certainty what they'll do.
(How much more for God who has supernatural mind, and knows every intricate detail about us)
So the predestination vs the free will is reconciled by God being able to foresee into the future, being eternal God.

About why does God also bring the wicked into the world alongside the righteous, that is a very good question.
Maybe because He wanted them to have an experience of life and free will, even though He knew they would still choose to hate Him ultimately. Maybe He had to bring them into the world to love them still anyway, because He is the God of love. It's deep stuff to pray about.

 

[Yahshua]

Greetings Y,

Thanks for sharing this again!

I will read it every time!

You help me put that all together, which is a very important detail!

BIG Thank You!

Do you mind if I copy that into a study folder I have? If I ever cite it I will cite you.

SG

Oh sure! Copy away. And don't worry about citing.

 

[DeighAnn]

About the free will, this is explained by the Father's foreknowledge, we are not pre-programmed, Jesus just "knows His sheep":
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

It's like you know your good friend, and because you know them, you can predict with certainty what they'll do.
(How much more for God who has supernatural mind, and knows every intricate detail about us)
So the predestination vs the free will is reconciled by God being able to foresee into the future, being eternal God.

About why does God also bring the wicked into the world alongside the righteous, that is a very good question.
Maybe because He wanted them to have an experience of life and free will, even though He knew they would still choose to hate Him ultimately. Maybe He had to bring them into the world to love them still anyway, because He is the God of love. It's deep stuff to pray about.

I do agree Jesus knows His sheep. It isn't about Prediction, it is exactly as stated "foreknew". So yes there is a group of OSAS. Problem is, is what has been promised to them, is being taught to many it is not promised to, leaving many as "never really saved" and they wont understand how they were deceived until standing up in Judgment. Only those who have already been proven, or preordained, or foreknew have it. So how do we stop those to whom it is not promised from being promised? By not teaching it. The truly OSAS don't go around professing it or claiming it they go around teaching salvation can be lost.

The reason God puts the wicked with the righteous is because He didn't want to destroy all of creation so in order to save as many as He could we all get another chance. Just as a Kenite doesn't have to stay a Kenite, A Christian doesn't have to stay one either. Whomsoever will overcome to them......

 

[SoulWeaver]

So how do we stop those to whom it is not promised from being promised? By not teaching it. The truly OSAS don't go around professing it or claiming it they go around teaching salvation can be lost.

I think you are mistaken here, because OSAS (we on the forum that do follow Jesus, not megachurches) do not teach salvation can be lost. We do teach eternal security in God as the Scriptures say. We also teach it goes with obedience as the fruit of faith. We cannot teach anything different, such as loss of salvation, because this is not the Gospel... we must only teach the Gospel. People who imagine they can abuse the blood of Grace are fools and will receive due punishment.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

All of them are absolutely reliable, but there are differences. Matthew, Mark. Luke and John reported what the Lord Jesus said, to the Jews, before His ascension to Heaven, while Paul relayed Christ's message, to Christians, after the ascension.

For almost 30 years I learned the same thing you learned: Jesus and Paul preached the exact same thing. If there seems to be a conflict, the reader must resort to hermeneutics -- and sometimes to quantum physics -- to make Jesus and Paul match.

Jesus told the man cured of leprosy to offer sacrifices; He told His disciples to obey the scribes and the Pharisees; He told the young rich ruler to keep the commandments; He taught (through His personal example) observance of the Sabbath; He taught His disciples to sell their possessions and give alms; He said it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter Heaven; etc.

What did Paul say about the above things? He said we are not under the Law, and regarding the rich here is what he said:

Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.

Marcelo,

This does not relate to the above post but I am wanting to give you another set of Scriptures by Jesus related to justification by faith alone:

John 6:28-29 ” 28Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.

God bless you brother.

 

[MattforJesus]

In the Old Testament there were the physical laws, and the spiritual laws, which are the laws of love, and moral laws, which the ten commandments would be spiritual for they are laws of love towards God and people.

We do not keep the laws of Moses, the physical laws, but the moral laws, and laws of love would carry in to the New Testament for that is how a person is saved love God, and love people, which can only be done by the Spirit.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

We live up to the law, the spiritual laws, and obey them.

And when we receive the Spirit we decide whether we want to obey the law, or not, for we are not automatically led by the Spirit to do good, for if that were true nobody would ever sin again after being saved, and the Spirit will help us along the way.

The Bible says quench not the Spirit so some do not allow the Spirit to have His way at times, for we decide whether we sin or not after we are saved, for we still have a choice.

Therefore there is no excuse if we sin for we are doing it on purpose when we can avoid it by choosing to not want it, and allow the Spirit to help us which we will not be tempted as hard as the world, and God will give us an escape from the temptation.

Some people make excuses for their sins and say they cannot abstain from sin, and we are only human so we are not perfect so we will sin, but that is no excuse, and Jesus will say to some depart from me, you workers of iniquity for they did not depart from sin.

If we sin we can be forgiven, but people should not have the attitude that they cannot abstain from sin when they choose to sin on purpose, and could of chose the good, for who twisted their arm to sin.

So if we decide whether we sin or not after we are saved for we still have a choice, then we have to obey the law, for the Spirit will not help us to obey the law if we do not want that help but want to sin.

If we do not have to obey the law then it is all the Spirit that is causing us to obey the law, and we have no choice, but then nobody would ever sin again if that were the case.

 

[DeighAnn]

I think you are mistaken here, because OSAS (we on the forum that do follow Jesus, not megachurches) do not teach salvation can be lost. We do teach eternal security in God as the Scriptures say. We also teach it goes with obedience as the fruit of faith. We cannot teach anything different, such as loss of salvation, because this is not the Gospel... we must only teach the Gospel. People who imagine they can abuse the blood of Grace are fools and will receive due punishment.

I will respect your belief, as I hope you will mine. We as teachers, will be the first to be judged because we will not only be responsible for ourselves, but for all doctrine we teach, and to all who follow it, be it truth or deception. I know there will never be a soul, standing in front of God and saying "but I thought I was saved" that will have anything to do with me and my teachings. Only those who have taught such, will be judged on that.

I will have taught when God says "I will not be mocked" that's what He means. And off the top of my head, if you deny, He will deny, The wedding guest cast into utter darkness, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, the virgins with out enough oil, those who take the mark of the beast, I never knew you, those who fall back, To those who "overcome", if you then I will, may, might not perish, who believes, hears, By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not, the warnings go on and on and on.

But lets not fight, God gives to all what measure He will. When the time comes, and the two witnesses are sent, they will give us all we need. As long as we have on the full gospel armor to withstand the fiery darts of Satan and are for God to use as He sees fit. We are responsible to teach the truth. You seem to feel you are doing so, and so do I. Maybe, just maybe, we are each teaching a different group with a different purpose of Gods Will and that is why He tells us not to be divided. His ways are not our ways. We should pray we do His will, and do it. I am solid in my foundation and study. You must be also. One of us may be mistaken. We shall definitely find out. Peace to you

 

[SoulWeaver]

I will respect your belief, as I hope you will mine. We as teachers, will be the first to be judged because we will not only be responsible for ourselves, but for all doctrine we teach, and to all who follow it, be it truth or deception. I know there will never be a soul, standing in front of God and saying "but I thought I was saved" that will have anything to do with me and my teachings. Only those who have taught such, will be judged on that.

I will have taught when God says "I will not be mocked" that's what He means. And off the top of my head, if you deny, He will deny, The wedding guest cast into utter darkness, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, the virgins with out enough oil, those who take the mark of the beast, I never knew you, those who fall back, To those who "overcome", if you then I will, may, might not perish, who believes, hears, By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not, the warnings go on and on and on.

But lets not fight, God gives to all what measure He will. When the time comes, and the two witnesses are sent, they will give us all we need. As long as we have on the full gospel armor to withstand the fiery darts of Satan and are for God to use as He sees fit. We are responsible to teach the truth. You seem to feel you are doing so, and so do I. Maybe, just maybe, we are each teaching a different group with a different purpose of Gods Will and that is why He tells us not to be divided. His ways are not our ways. We should pray we do His will, and do it. I am solid in my foundation and study. You must be also. One of us may be mistaken. We shall definitely find out. Peace to you

We are not fighting, we are talking. You are my family in Jesus.
I think I am not completely understanding you. If God is that big to state His gifts are irrevocable and He wanted us to know, and revealed this to us the Scriptures, it would seem He wants it preached. (And that He has the situation under control, I'd think.)
But you are implying that we should preach contrary to the Scriptures, and tell people that salvation can be lost, instead.
How are you helping the Kingdom of God, if you preach contrary to the truth in the Gospel?
(I am imploring you to just consider what you're suggesting to do here...)

And this is also the cause of needless contention among us... OSAS believing brethren, all that I've ran into so far, do teach that the godly life and fruits of Holy Spirit shall follow those who believe, which is opposite to "i can live how i want and be secure".
One seriously needs to be brazen wicked and not fear God to preach such.

 

[DeighAnn]

We are not fighting, we are talking. You are my family in Jesus.
I think I am not completely understanding you. If God is that big to state His gifts are irrevocable and He wanted us to know, and revealed this to us the Scriptures, it would seem He wants it preached. (And that He has the situation under control, I'd think.)
I think the first problem comes with the distinction between Who are the Gentiles? Who is Judah? Who is Israel? Who is Jacob? Who are the Kenites? The Irrevocable gifts are promised to Israels to Gods elect, just them. Do you agree?

But you are implying that we should preach contrary to the Scriptures, and tell people that salvation can be lost, instead.
What am I asking that is contrary to the Scripture? God tells time after time after time, it can be lost. How is that contrary? Well, it may be contrary to the doctrine you teach, but that does not make it contrary to scripture. Do you see how in the way you pose your question there is a bit of deception by assuming something is a truth of Gods when it may only be a truth as you see it? Please understand, I am just trying to get us on an even playing field and I don't do well with that sort of stuff. I always feel I am being manipulated. My mom did that all my life, but she said she did n't know it. So I must believe that can be true.

How are you helping the Kingdom of God, if you preach contrary to the truth in the Gospel? Do you see it here? You making a statement posed as a question? I try hard not to do that, for the lambs, you know?

(I am imploring you to just consider what you're suggesting to do here...) You do not need to implore me. There will be no way I will ever teach a lamb OSAS. A mature sheep who is set and sure, and deep into the Word yes, but when it is being given to those who do not have the faith to know the truth of it, then it can become a lie. Jesus saves. I agree.

And this is also the cause of needless contention among us... OSAS believing brethren, all that I've ran into so far, do teach that the godly life and fruits of Holy Spirit shall follow those who believe, which is opposite to "i can live how i want and be secure".
One seriously needs to be brazen wicked and not fear God to preach such.

I have been coming here a couple months. I know nothing of "religions of the world" I study the word of God.

Work for salvation?? The thought had never even crossed my mind to do that. But I am now accused of it all the time by these " OSASed" and even after I have denied it, more than once, more than twice, more than 20, I could go way up in numbers here, but they don't care. It doesn't not matter who I am or what truth I tell. . And since I do not agree with it, they keep doing it, knowing when posing the question, it is just like lying. But I don't think they see that. But, that law that was written inside, I get real bad convictions from the spirit so I can't constantly do that, like they can.
Then they call me names, tell me I am not really saved or I need to invite Jesus into my life. And the ganging up, just like wolves. And this is how they are promoting this doctrine of God?? This IS the spirit the OSAS are putting out, at least from what I have experienced. There are no fruits of "the spirit" that I recognize of the Lords. The saving grace of it all, is all the "guests" who come and read. For I know Gods Truth will shine good and bright and all will be turned to their fathers. With that I must go.

So am I seriously brazen, and wicked?? Do I not fear God?? Do you see why I preach what I preach?

 

[SoulWeaver]

And since I do not agree with it, they keep doing it, knowing when posing the question, it is just like lying. But I don't think they see that. But, that law that was written inside, I get real bad convictions from the spirit so I can't constantly do that, like they can.

It seems both sides are doing it in this whole debate. I was just praying about the miscommunications, the whole forum looks to me like Tower of Babel just crashed, nobody understands nobody anymore. It's kind of insane as you must have noticed.
I get convicted from the Holy Spirit too, "for every son that He receives, also chastises". This is how I know I am His child and born of Him.
And right, this is not works salvation...

Then they call me names, tell me I am not really saved or I need to invite Jesus into my life. And the ganging up, just like wolves. And this is how they are promoting this doctrine of God?? This IS the spirit the OSAS are putting out, at least from what I have experienced. There are no fruits of "the spirit" that I recognize of the Lords. The saving grace of it all, is all the "guests" who come and read. For I know Gods Truth will shine good and bright and all will be turned to their fathers. With that I must go.

There are toxic people in both groups.

So am I seriously brazen, and wicked?? Do I not fear God?? Do you see why I preach what I preach?

The brazen and wicked I said not about you, but about the teaching: "i can live how i want and be secure".
We don't teach such here... at least not the "regular" members. So I think you're preaching to the choir in that sense, we're on the same team.

What am I asking that is contrary to the Scripture? God tells time after time after time, it can be lost. How is that contrary? Well, it may be contrary to the doctrine you teach, but that does not make it contrary to scripture.

But the Scripture says the gifts of God are irrevocable. If this is so, then it is not possible for the gift of salvation to be lost. God does not change His mind about setting out to save you. He will make a mighty war. If you received it by faith in Jesus, Jesus works it out and perfects you. I think you make mistake here saying it can be lost.
Calling people to repent, or get saved from unregenerate state, is something completely different and legit.

There will be no way I will ever teach a lamb OSAS. A mature sheep who is set and sure, and deep into the Word yes, but when it is being given to those who do not have the faith to know the truth of it, then it can become a lie.

I disagree. I had the opposite experience. Surrendering to Jesus changed my life significantly but it was very steep and constant stress and fear (bad kind of fear) because I thought I could "lose" salvation. It was an awful life. To teach a little sheep that is to teach them to be in chronic agony! There were many times I could not sleep and agonized, in fear that God would disown me. It's not right to teach it to anyone. When I received - allowed myself to finally receive - the UNCONDITIONAL love of Jesus by believing eternal security I made some really big spiritual breakthroughs. A lot more joy and peace...

I am not saying you are not saved, or anything like that.
Where we disagree is what you want to teach others. One set of beliefs for you, yet another set for others.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I have been coming here a couple months. I know nothing of "religions of the world" I study the word of God.

Work for salvation?? The thought had never even crossed my mind to do that. But I am now accused of it all the time by these " OSASed" and even after I have denied it, more than once, more than twice, more than 20, I could go way up in numbers here, but they don't care. It doesn't not matter who I am or what truth I tell. . And since I do not agree with it, they keep doing it, knowing when posing the question, it is just like lying. But I don't think they see that. But, that law that was written inside, I get real bad convictions from the spirit so I can't constantly do that, like they can.
Then they call me names, tell me I am not really saved or I need to invite Jesus into my life. And the ganging up, just like wolves. And this is how they are promoting this doctrine of God?? This IS the spirit the OSAS are putting out, at least from what I have experienced. There are no fruits of "the spirit" that I recognize of the Lords. The saving grace of it all, is all the "guests" who come and read. For I know Gods Truth will shine good and bright and all will be turned to their fathers. With that I must go.

So am I seriously brazen, and wicked?? Do I not fear God?? Do you see why I preach what I preach?

The OSAS crowd is strong in this site and can be hostile. I dont agree with all of their view but as I grew older, I realized in the end it wasn't all that important. We can not know the heart of mankind as God does. We cannot see the future either.

Regardless if someone saved walks away from faith, or never was saved, or not knowing who God predestined, etc. Even if predestination was true we still wouldn't know who was chosen. Looking at reality people do walk away from the faith. They debate well either they was never saved or saved but backsliding or if they completely turn their faith from God maybe Gods mercy is only connected to faith. But still only God knows that individuals heart.

Either way so what? The lost still needs preaching to because we do not know the predestined or who will respond. The one who walks away regardless still needs love, prayer and guidance. Either way those doctrines have been debated for centuries and probably will be until Christ returns.

Once boiled down one must deny free will or free will is constant in the whole process.

It is silly how hostile people get over issues like this that in reality we should be focused on Jesus and responding United to the dangers that the culture is trying to push. The idealogies and worldviews that are spawned from secularism, atheism, scientology, etc. This is where the true Battlefield is. The hearts and minds of our youth are falling away to the teachings of atheism. This is our battlefield that must be won for the safety of future generations.

 

[wokinluv]

Just a couple of questions if you don't mind me joining/interrupting your conversation. Thanks and God bless.


Considering Romans 8:1 in regards to OSAS, is it not your belief that you would no longer face judgment since your salvation is irrevocable, non-losable and eternal as the term OSAS implies?

Who are those that are truly in Christ Jesus according to scriptures?
I provided the ff: scriptures for your guidance.

But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
1 John 2:5-6

And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
2 John 1:6

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 3:1-6

Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and Walk in Love.

His Love endures forever.

 

[wokinluv]

It seems both sides are doing it in this whole debate. I was just praying about the miscommunications, the whole forum looks to me like Tower of Babel just crashed, nobody understands nobody anymore. It's kind of insane as you must have noticed.
I get convicted from the Holy Spirit too, "for every son that He receives, also chastises". This is how I know I am His child and born of Him.
And right, this is not works salvation...


There are toxic people in both groups.


The brazen and wicked I said not about you, but about the teaching: "i can live how i want and be secure".
We don't teach such here... at least not the "regular" members. So I think you're preaching to the choir in that sense, we're on the same team.


But the Scripture says the gifts of God are irrevocable. If this is so, then it is not possible for the gift of salvation to be lost. God does not change His mind about setting out to save you. He will make a mighty war. If you received it by faith in Jesus, Jesus works it out and perfects you. I think you make mistake here saying it can be lost.
Calling people to repent, or get saved from unregenerate state, is something completely different and legit.


I disagree. I had the opposite experience. Surrendering to Jesus changed my life significantly but it was very steep and constant stress and fear (bad kind of fear) because I thought I could "lose" salvation. It was an awful life. To teach a little sheep that is to teach them to be in chronic agony! There were many times I could not sleep and agonized, in fear that God would disown me. It's not right to teach it to anyone. When I received - allowed myself to finally receive - the UNCONDITIONAL love of Jesus by believing eternal security I made some really big spiritual breakthroughs. A lot more joy and peace...

I am not saying you are not saved, or anything like that.
Where we disagree is what you want to teach others. One set of beliefs for you, yet another set for others.

Just a couple of questions if you don't mind me joining/interrupting your conversation. Thanks and God bless.


Considering Romans 8:1 in regards to OSAS, is it not your belief that you would no longer face judgment since your salvation is irrevocable, non-losable and eternal as the term OSAS implies?

Who are those that are truly in Christ Jesus according to scriptures?
I provided the ff: scriptures for your guidance.

But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
1 John 2:5-6

And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
2 John 1:6

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 3:1-6

Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and Walk in Love.

His Love endures forever.

 

[SimpleGardner]

About why does God also bring the wicked into the world alongside the righteous, that is a very good question.
Maybe because He wanted them to have an experience of life and free will, even though He knew they would still choose to hate Him ultimately. Maybe He had to bring them into the world to love them still anyway, because He is the God of love. It's deep stuff to pray about.

Greetings SW,

So well written, I appreciate the concept of Predestination and I agree with it, from Gods Perspective, since everything, even the end from the beginning is already known. Isa 46:10.

The Eternal, not being constrained by time alone gives Him the opportunity to "know" all things. The finite mind can contemplate the "Eternals" ways and should, but without divine insight we can not even scratch the surface. One might argue that the word "Eternal" is not just a concept of "Without Time", "without" defined not as "not having", but "exterior to". With that in mind, is there anything "Eternal" but The Heavenly Father" Himself? I capitalize "Eternal" because essentially He alone is "Eternal" having no beginning. I consider Enoch and how he "Walked with God" and God "took" him. Not too dissimilar to us today thanks be to Yahshua through The Heavenly Father and His Holy Spirit.

Back to Predestination and "the wicked". It is hard to conceptualize that when God formed The Adam Gen 2:7, He knew already what Adam would do. But can He close His eyes to His foresight? Does He ever? Dunno!

But, is that to say because God, when He had the lump of clay in His hand that He was forming The Adam from, whom He Knew would sin, that He hesitated? If God hesitated with that lump, then His foreknowledge would betray His actions it seems to me. Perhaps His foreknowledge does not so much inform His creative actions, since that would seemingly violate the "free will" He created and allows, as much as it simply informs Him, giving new dimensions to "I knew you in the womb". I could go on, but I hesitate because I simply do not know. Either way, free will is there, perhaps the lump of clay was not made into The Adam pre-ordained to do as Adam did, but Fore-Known to do what he would do. So if God could close His eyes to any one of our futures would He know what we would do? If not "fore-Known", if so "fore-ordained". Man has his plans but God ordains his steps. God places the Kings/authorities, but based upon His foreknowledge and His intent.

Jer 31:20 KJV Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD.

I consider The "Eternal" in the above and try to reconcile His foreknowledge to it. Or;

Isa 42:8-9 KJV I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. (9) Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Isa 45:21-23 KJV Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. (22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.


Perhaps a contemplation of The Eternal can be change a mans mind. Perhaps knowing the significance of "Free Will" pales in comparison to the humbling knowledge of knowing God "Foreknows" everything?

What was Pauls saying:

Rom 9:21 KJV Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonour?

Did God in fact Pre-Ordain each lump? Or did He Fore-Know each lump and place them carefully where He willed them to be in order to accomplish His purposes? Dunno. Could he Fore-Ordain each lump and still maintain the integrity of "free will"? Is time itself the definition of "free will"? Dunno.

It's a marvelous thing though that our Heavenly Father, who is all powerful, all knowing, is a Just, Loving, Merciful, Wise God!

How blessed are we!

SG

 

[stonesoffire]

I have one question. 2Tim 2:21

How is a Christian purged?

 

[SimpleGardner]

I have one question. 2Tim 2:21

How is a Christian purged?

Could the "also" in vs 22 give some idea of part of your answer?

 

[SimpleGardner]

About the free will, this is explained by the Father's foreknowledge, we are not pre-programmed, Jesus just "knows His sheep":
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

It's like you know your good friend, and because you know them, you can predict with certainty what they'll do.
(How much more for God who has supernatural mind, and knows every intricate detail about us)
So the predestination vs the free will is reconciled by God being able to foresee into the future, being eternal God.

About why does God also bring the wicked into the world alongside the righteous, that is a very good question.
Maybe because He wanted them to have an experience of life and free will, even though He knew they would still choose to hate Him ultimately. Maybe He had to bring them into the world to love them still anyway, because He is the God of love. It's deep stuff to pray about.

Another point you touched above ( See underlined and bolded) is a mystery Yahshua touched on;

As a way of pointing out the magnitude of the information provided by Yahshua in Matthew Ch 13, Matthew includes the following:

Mat 13:34-35 KJV All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: (35) That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. This is from Psalm 78:2

So, when Yahshua declared;

Mat 13:36-43 KJV Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. (37) He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; (38) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; (39) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. (40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. (41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; (42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (43) Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Perhaps the answer to the question "why does God also bring the wicked into the world alongside the righteous," is;

Mat 13:28 KJV He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?


SG

 

[NayborBear]

I think you are mistaken here, because OSAS (we on the forum that do follow Jesus, not megachurches) do not teach salvation can be lost. We do teach eternal security in God as the Scriptures say. We also teach it goes with obedience as the fruit of faith. We cannot teach anything different, such as loss of salvation, because this is not the Gospel... we must only teach the Gospel. People who imagine they can abuse the blood of Grace are fools and will receive due punishment.

Concerning the teaching of "Eternal Security" from the "OSAS crowd."
Why do y'all teach "words without knowledge?"
In the selling of a "false hope?" Getting people to believe that once they have accepted Christ? Their "names" are permanently entered into the "Lambs Book of Life." (tis a "pencil w/ eraser", for means of illustration, for older ones who still know what a "pencil" is ) (meaning, a name can be written, erased, written, erased many times, up to the Great White Throne Judgement)
After the "Great White Throne Judgement?" THEN! And ONLY THEN, is one's salvation "ETERNAL!"
Up to that point? One can only hope that what one does, or has done, or, shall do, is enough to keep one's name in the "Lambs Book of Life."
Have they gone through, or going through the first resurrection? Yes? No?
Have they partook of the "hidden manna?"
Given a "White Stone" with their "New Name?" Of which no one knows, save he/she who has been given it, and He who gave it?

I say this in "efforts" of contending with "vanity", that so oft times gives cause for one to believe, thus, giving cause for one in "selling" vanity. In this case? "Eternal salvation/security."

 

[Grandpa]

Remember that Paul says "the law was added because of transgression", but the laws above given at mt. Sinai weren't added because of any transgressions. There was no transgression that prompted the giving those initial laws that are part of the sinai covenant.

...but there was a specific transgression that occurred after Moses was busy getting instructions for the tabernacle...

This part is wrong. Moses was already coming down with commandments written on stone when he found the people making an idol.

So the transgression HAD ALREADY TAKEN PLACE that caused the law to be added.

What was that transgression? Rejecting Gods Grace and Provision.

The Hebrews wanted to go back to Egypt. They murmured and complained about what God was Providing and doing for them.

God was going to strike them all dead and start over with a different people but Moses was able to stand in the gap for them.


SO the Law that was added because of transgression was the 10 commandments. Those who reject Grace still are sentenced to this same sentence. They get the 10 commandments. AND THEY DO IT IN THEIR OWN UNDERSTANDING. Nobody has to tell them. They automatically do it.

Accepts the Grace that God Gives;
Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Rejects the Grace that God Gives;
Romans 9:31-32
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

What is the cause of legalists going back to or staying in the understanding of working at the 10 commandments?

Rejecting Gods Grace.

2 Corinthians 3:14-15
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.


This is the CAUSE of taking the law and splitting it into parts and saying some of it has been abolished but some of it still applies.

Because the understanding of Coming to Christ and receiving Rest hasn't been received. And because of this the vail remains untaken away.

 

[NayborBear]

Greetings SW,

So well written, I appreciate the concept of Predestination and I agree with it, from Gods Perspective, since everything, even the end from the beginning is already known. Isa 46:10.

The Eternal, not being constrained by time alone gives Him the opportunity to "know" all things. The finite mind can contemplate the "Eternals" ways and should, but without divine insight we can not even scratch the surface. One might argue that the word "Eternal" is not just a concept of "Without Time", "without" defined not as "not having", but "exterior to". With that in mind, is there anything "Eternal" but The Heavenly Father" Himself? I capitalize "Eternal" because essentially He alone is "Eternal" having no beginning. I consider Enoch and how he "Walked with God" and God "took" him. Not too dissimilar to us today thanks be to Yahshua through The Heavenly Father and His Holy Spirit.

Back to Predestination and "the wicked". It is hard to conceptualize that when God formed The Adam Gen 2:7, He knew already what Adam would do. But can He close His eyes to His foresight? Does He ever? Dunno!

But, is that to say because God, when He had the lump of clay in His hand that He was forming The Adam from, whom He Knew would sin, that He hesitated? If God hesitated with that lump, then His foreknowledge would betray His actions it seems to me. Perhaps His foreknowledge does not so much inform His creative actions, since that would seemingly violate the "free will" He created and allows, as much as it simply informs Him, giving new dimensions to "I knew you in the womb". I could go on, but I hesitate because I simply do not know. Either way, free will is there, perhaps the lump of clay was not made into The Adam pre-ordained to do as Adam did, but Fore-Known to do what he would do. So if God could close His eyes to any one of our futures would He know what we would do? If not "fore-Known", if so "fore-ordained". Man has his plans but God ordains his steps. God places the Kings/authorities, but based upon His foreknowledge and His intent.

Jer 31:20 KJV Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD.

I consider The "Eternal" in the above and try to reconcile His foreknowledge to it. Or;

Isa 42:8-9 KJV I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. (9) Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Isa 45:21-23 KJV Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. (22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.


Perhaps a contemplation of The Eternal can be change a mans mind. Perhaps knowing the significance of "Free Will" pales in comparison to the humbling knowledge of knowing God "Foreknows" everything?

What was Pauls saying:

Rom 9:21 KJV Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonour?

Did God in fact Pre-Ordain each lump? Or did He Fore-Know each lump and place them carefully where He willed them to be in order to accomplish His purposes? Dunno. Could he Fore-Ordain each lump and still maintain the integrity of "free will"? Is time itself the definition of "free will"? Dunno.

It's a marvelous thing though that our Heavenly Father, who is all powerful, all knowing, is a Just, Loving, Merciful, Wise God!

How blessed are we!

SG

It is so amazing, our Heavenly Father, and God is, that even in the Bible's explanations in "simple" terms, so that flesh man might understand, doesn't really give "due diligence" as to His Power and Authority.

One has to "come to grips" with the fact that our Heavenly Father, as well as Messiah, does have enemies! So, it's not so much of a "pre-ordaining" of knowing the "end from the beginning." As it is, a "fore-knowing" of what the enemies of God will do, when peoples love for Him, waxes cold!