Pentecostals and others claiming "second experiences"

except to encourage each other to seek the Giver of the gifts rather than the gifts themselves.

I have pondered the "two tier" experience claims of various Pentecostals and charismatics" over the years.

The basic idea is this: the person is supposedly saved but never experiences deliverance from sin in a substantial way. They are living an unproductive spiritual life for a period of time.

Then, all of a sudden, they have this "second experience" where they go from being a mediocre Christian to a super-duper Christian, sometimes accompanied by alleged spiritual gifts. Many times, the claimant allegedly speaks in tongues as proof of their special empowerment.

The view of "second experiences" is often inferred from the text of the book of Acts. My position would be that the individual is viewing Acts as the normative, rather than a narrative or description of a transitional period of time.

I recommend Dwight Pentecost's book called New Wine: A Study of Transition in the Book of Acts in regards to this view. He describes how the true believers were being transitioned from Israel to the people of God, the election was being transitioned from Jews to Gentiles, and the authority was passing from the priests to the apostles of the Church.

Here's the possibilities I can see in this regard:

1. The person was not saved during their first experience, and the second experience, the person was actually regenerated.
2. The person was saved during their first experience, but grew in their relationship with God and experienced a deeper level of relationship
3. The person is not saved, and is engaging in self-deception

My guess is that there are individuals in all of those categories.

I am not very open minded about "speaking in tongues", though....it seems like those making the claim often begin with someone instructing them how to "speak in tongues". I don't see anyone in Acts who had to be taught to engage in "speaking in tongues". However, there are so many youtube videos teaching how to "speak in tongues". Asking someone how they came to "speak in tongues" is informative..did they learn it from someone else? Did someone exert psychological pressure to get them to speak in tongues? Answers to these questions are instructive.

Anyways, I am strongly against "two tier" systems which claim that there is a group of super-duper Christians, and another group of Christians who are not spiritually empowered. I don't see it in Scripture. I guess I could go with the view that lazy, slothful Christians who don't engage in reading their Bible and praying could be a lower level of Christian, especially in their earlier Christianity. In reality, though, they are united with Christ, even if they aren't experiencing the deeper, satisfying relationship they could be having.

?????
the gifts of the Holy Spirit are distributed within the Spirit-filled church for the exhortation, comfort and teaching of the saints.
These gifts are given to identify and uphold the power and presence of God working within his church - thus in my church
we have numerous testimonies to healings, miracles, divine provision, safety from dangers, blessings ...

we do not seek after the gifts for they are readily dispersed to us as needed in our walk and purpose within the body of Christ:
7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to
the same Spirit,
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing,
helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.
1Corinthians 12:

So much energy spent attacking charismatics that are at least trying and believing.
Why not excel and bring others up?
Show them the proper way.
We can see your deal and it ain't pretty.

"These signs shall follow them that believe..."

He goes on to describe miracles.

No miracles....no Jesus.
We need help,not destroying

You cut off my phrase in the middle, rendering it meaningless...

'I would prefer not to get into these type of debates except to encourage each other to seek the Giver of the gifts rather than the gifts themselves.'

Another reason I don't stick with charismatics, they do sloppy exegesis when handling God's Word.

I have heard the accusation by non-Pentecostals (those who adamantly reject the validity of the pentecostal doctrine) that to believe in an additional experience that empowers one to be a witness suggest that we think that a brother who does not believe as we do is "less" powerful a witness. Then based on this premise they state that we make ourselves out to be the "elite". My answer to this would be to ask them the question "Do you think one of your ministers who pray daily for the Lord to use him in ministry in the church will be more effective than the minister who does not pray at all?" If he is honest he will agree that the praying minister will most assuredly be more effective. Then would you say he is claiming to be elite? It is ludicrous to accuse those who ask for the filling of the Holy Spirit to empower them to be a witness, of claiming super Christian status. When the apostles were let out of jail after being beaten and told not to preach anymore in Jesus name, they gathered with the church and prayed for the Holy Spirit to fill them and empower them to preach boldly in His Name. The place was shaken and they preached the word boldly. That was additional experience after salvation and you would do good to follow their example all the days of your life on earth. I would doubt the salvation of anyone who thinks they are better than their Christian brother because they have experienced gifts from the Spirit of God. Gifts given by the Spirit of God are still gifts and not something we can boast about. Those who do boast or claim some special authority because of their gifts should be marked as false brethren and not to be trusted. The Spirit of God will produce humility, not showmanship

QUOTE "UnitedWithChrist, post: 4008720, member: 287917"]I have pondered the "two tier" experience claims of various Pentecostals and charismatics" over the years. The basic idea is this: the person is supposedly saved but never experiences deliverance from sin in a substantial way. They are living an unproductive spiritual life for a period of time."

Whoever said this must be confused about the purpose of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit which is to give power to be a witness. Luke emphasized the power of the Holy Spirit for spreading the gospel. Paul emphasized the work of the Spirit in sanctification. Many people have tried to interpret Lukes statements in the light of Paul's teachings. If someone is stating that the purpose of the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts is to make carnal christians more holy they have misunderstood the text. The purpose of this second work of grace was for empowering to witness. The Holy Spirit comes to dwell in every believer who puts their faith in Jesus Christ. This is sufficient for holy living and sanctification. A carnal Christian needs to repent and love Jesus more. They need to fear God and realize that without holiness no man shall see the Lord. Speaking in tongues was not for sanctification but for witnessing, edification in the church with an interpreter and praying between themselves and God if there was not as Paul stated in 1 cor 14. I don't doubt you may have heard someone say they became holier after their experience but I think they were confused about the purpose of pentecostal experience. I suppose however if one is seeking God for the infilling of the Holy Spirit to be a witness such seeking after God is going to result in ever increasing holiness simply because you are praying for more of His power.

this should be addressed as a separate issue

youtube, while it can be entertaining, is not a study guide and frankly I do not agree with teaching people to speak in tongues per se

however, people do need to be taught about the gifts of the Holy Spirit and in a sound and biblical manner

youtube is also a great resource for cessationists and has been well used in this forum for that very purpose

in other words, youtube benefits those who either do not know how to study the multitude of available study material or are just too used to using social media as their benefactor for all things anyone wants to know at any time in this present day and age

Well obviously that would be true ... it would seem that you have no been baptised in the Holy Spirit as you do not know of
what this means nor can you pray in tongues.
So there would be a difference between a denominational Christian and a Spirit-filled Pentecostal Christian.
Those without the Spirit walk in faith in their own strength and can only pray with their understanding;
those who have received the indwelling Holy Spirit and can pray in tongues walk in faith with power - the power of God
manifest in their lives to overcome all circumstances, and to overcome sin and our carnal selves.

Then he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of hosts.
Zechariah 4:6
5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? —
6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
Galatians 3:6

So whos John Mc Arthur? I've read the New testament many times and can't recall his name in it at all.

"...which claim that there is a group of super-duper Christians, and another group of Christians who are not spiritually empowered"
You either didn't look ,or just made that up .
Paul makes the distinction over and over. Christians walking in the spirit vs christians walking in the flesh.
But even Jesus classified those born again as full of the spirit vs bare essential carnal believers.
The epistles were all written by spirit baptised men,to other spirit baptised men.

Jesus sets the pattern twice,we are without excuse.
1) he NEVER started his ministry until he was baptised in the Holy Ghost.
2) he ordered his church "tarry in Jerusalem till you are endued with power.

About all the mental church can do is spin a fable
"Well the gifts ended and the Holy Spirit and jesus changed jobs"

Ironically it "Works" for them.
They have no power.

Amazing how Jesus knew what we needed for ministry.
Also ironic that it was the Pharisees that were offended by His power.

It was they he invoked the unpardonable sin upon.
They labeled the power of the Holy Spirit as demonic.

Where did you get this "basic idea"? I've been around pentecostal/charismatic churches for over 20 years and have never heard that. I don't accept it as a foundational belief for the "two-tier" experience, so so I consider moot the rest of your thesis.

Well obviously that would be true ... it would seem that you have no been baptised in the Holy Spirit as you do not know of
what this means nor can you pray in tongues.
So there would be a difference between a denominational Christian and a Spirit-filled Pentecostal Christian.
Those without the Spirit walk in faith in their own strength and can only pray with their understanding;
those who have received the indwelling Holy Spirit and can pray in tongues walk in faith with power - the power of God
manifest in their lives to overcome all circumstances, and to overcome sin and our carnal selves.

Then he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of hosts.
Zechariah 4:6
5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? —
6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
Galatians 3:6

If this thread shows anything, it shows our experiences differ.
Because their is no definitive teaching on this also gives way to open expression of our various experiences...all of which do not rise to the authoritative level of Scripture.

My experience: Born again in Dec '72. For fifteen months I was slowly drawn to Christ by the dealings of His Spirit (through some visions and dreams and his Word). In Mat '74 completely giving myself to Him (in jail) experienced what I would call the baptism of the Holy Spirit. When I left that jail, I would be bold to speak to anyone (and I did) including Hell's Angels about Jesus. I also left that jail full of peace, I had never ever experienced before (not even on reds) and abiding joy.
Having said that, I just don't believe we have enough biblical data to go one way or the other and I would prefer not to get into these type of debates except to encourage each other to seek the Giver of the gifts rather than the gifts themselves.

When continuationists claim that cessationists don't believe in the gifts of the Spirit, they are lying.

Cessationists do believe in the gifts of the Spirit...they don't believe that certain gifts are active today,
[…]
Do you realize that cessationists believe that the Holy Spirit empowers the believer with other gifts?

If so, why are you misrepresenting and claiming that cessationlists don't believe in "the gifts"?

QUOTE "UnitedWithChrist, post: 4008720, member: 287917"]I have pondered the "two tier" experience claims of various Pentecostals and charismatics" over the years. The basic idea is this: the person is supposedly saved but never experiences deliverance from sin in a substantial way. They are living an unproductive spiritual life for a period of time."

Whoever said this must be confused about the purpose of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit which is to give power to be a witness. Luke emphasized the power of the Holy Spirit for spreading the gospel. Paul emphasized the work of the Spirit in sanctification. Many people have tried to interpret Lukes statements in the light of Paul's teachings. If someone is stating that the purpose of the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts is to make carnal christians more holy they have misunderstood the text. The purpose of this second work of grace was for empowering to witness. The Holy Spirit comes to dwell in every believer who puts their faith in Jesus Christ. This is sufficient for holy living and sanctification. A carnal Christian needs to repent and love Jesus more. They need to fear God and realize that without holiness no man shall see the Lord. Speaking in tongues was not for sanctification but for witnessing, edification in the church with an interpreter and praying between themselves and God if there was not as Paul stated in 1 cor 14. I don't doubt you may have heard someone say they became holier after their experience but I think they were confused about the purpose of pentecostal experience. I suppose however if one is seeking God for the infilling of the Holy Spirit to be a witness such seeking after God is going to result in ever increasing holiness simply because you are praying for more of His power.