The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?

OK. I get where you are coming from now.

https://gatheringofchrist.org/getting-to-know-ahayah-in-a-real-way/

Not a good place to start that's for sure.

Daniel Chapter 12 takes us to around 70 AD. That's It!
Revelation picks up where Daniel Left off, with a little overlap.

Say what?

“Now I have come to give you an understanding of what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision pertains to the days yet future.”


"And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. “Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. “Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”

Hi Bluto,

The type of wrath is not the issue, because believers are not appointed to suffer any of God's wrath, whether the wrath that is coming upon this earth nor the wrath which leads to the lake of fire. The underlying principle for this, is that Jesus already took upon himself the wrath of God that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. When we believed in Christ we were credited with righteousness and reconciled to God, which means that believers have been brought back into a peaceful relationship with God. Because of this, believers must be removed from the earth prior to the on-set of God's wrath which will be initiated by the opening of the first seal.

The destress and affliction that Paul is speaking about in the scripture above, is the trials and tribulation that Jesus said all believers would suffer as a result of faith in Him. This in not the wrath of God, but comes at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness. Many people claim that the church will be going through God's wrath and that because they don't understand the difference between the common trials and tribulations that come as a result of our faith vs. God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. It is the later that we are not appointed to suffer. John mentions the same common trials and tribulations that he was suffering in Rev.1:9 when he said, "I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance that are in Jesus." John wasn't speaking about God's wrath, but the tribulation that he was suffering by being exiled to the isle of Patmos for his faith in Jesus. Below are some of the other scriptures which show that we will not be here for God's wrath.

"and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come."

"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Therefore, the AFFLICTIONS that we THAT WE HAVE BEEND DESTINED FOR, is referring to the trials and tribulation that come from the hands of men and the powers of darkness, which are not the wrath of God.

The wrath of God, also referred to as "the hour of trial" and as "the day of the Lord" will be specific time when God will pour out His plagues of wrath which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses bring. Because Christ has already suffered God's wrath for all who believe in Him, then according to His promise in John 14:1-3 and 1 Thess.4:13-17, we must be removed from the earth prior to the on-set of God's wrath.

You are correct in that, there will only be one coming. The problem is that many do not recognize that the Lord's appearing to gather the church vs. His coming to the earth to end that age as being two separate events with different purposes.

Prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom, the wrath of God must take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Therefore, if you have the church being gathered at the same time that the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, then you would be putting the church through the entire wrath of God which believers are not appointed to suffer. Those seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be poured out upon a Christ rejecting world, those willfully living according to the sinful nature. Where believers in Christ have already repented and have been credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. And you think that God is going punish the righteous with the wicked?

It is because of God's coming wrath that Jesus and the apostles continue to warn us throughout scripture to be watching and ready.

* We are here

* The Lord appears to gather His church

* The antichrist is revealed and will make his agreement with Israel initiating that last seven years

* The seals, trumpets and bowl judgment will run throughout the entire seven years

* Jesus returns to the earth to end the age after the 7th bowl has been poured out (second coming)

* The beast and the false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire

* Satan is thrown into the Abyss during the Lord's thousand year reign

The two below are two separate events with different purposes

The gathering of the church = Jesus descends to the air gathering the dead and living and taken back to the Father's house

The second coming = Jesus returning with the church to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom

I posted a brief study about this verse awhile back.

Hebrews 9:28 [written out in the following way, to try to show my point] -

--so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many,

--a second time apart from a sin-offering [/apart from sin] shall appear [passive; G3708],

--to those waiting for him -- to [/unto] salvation!


Note the word "shall appear [passive; G3708]". Out of the TOTAL 684x this word is used in the NT,
this word is only used 10x in the passive (as here) with regard to Jesus

(5x of which referred to His physical [glorified Body] presence on the earth with the disciples [not the entire world, or "widely," you might say] FOLLOWING His death and resurrection; the other 5x referring to having appeared to one particular person [who I believe is a TYPE of the future 144,000!] FROM [His position IN] HEAVEN--not present on the earth, with said person [ALSO FOLLOWING HIs death and resurrection]).


Every one of those 10x speaks of that which took place AFTER His "death and resurrection"; and
NONE of those 10x speaks of anything which took place BEFORE His "death and resurrection".

Boiling down the entire study (without putting the entire study here in this post), I'll just say, I do not believe this verse is speaking to either "our Rapture [in the air]" OR "His Second Coming to the earth" (in the same way the other instances of its usage [total 10x re: Jesus "appeared [passive]"] were not); The other verses spoke to the FIRST time this occurred [ALL *AFTER* His death and resurrection; the SECOND time this will take place (and what I believe this verse speaks to) does not speak of EITHER the Rapture OR His Second Coming to the earth.
Mute point, as I see it. Or at least, insufficient, IMO.

There is nothing in the context that would support that. In addition, I listed the scriptures which identified them as being two individual persons. In order to come to a right conclusion, we need to pay attention to the details of the context.

In addition, I also make it clear that personal pronouns are used to describe the two witnesses, which means they are person and not nations. You will find nothing in the context that suggests that the two witnesses is figurative representing nations.

Please go back and read the post regarding everything that I pointed out. Exampl: You can't put two nations in a tomb. And it also states that their bodies will lie in the streets for 3 1/2 days.

I don't know where you read that the two witnesses are two nations, but whoever made that claim is wrong. These two witnesses will in part bring plagues reminiscent of Elijah by keeping it from during their time of prophecy.

If you will read the scripture in its plain literal meaning, then you will see that it means what it says. But if you force a symbolic meaning on it, then you are distorting the true meaning.

Also, the scripture specifically states that these two witnesses will lie in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days and then the breath of God will enter them and the will resurrect. According to your claim, there would be two nations lying in the streets of Jerusalem, which the scripture does not support.

Actuall I forgot to link Hebrews 9:28 to vs27. "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this judgment, vs28, SO CHRIST also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

So judgment comes after Jesus comes a second time, no rapture. Btw, as a side note Hebrews 9:27 proves that there is no such thing as "reincarnation."

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Do you believe the bold means that everyone must "die" first (b/f He can return/come)?


The FIRST time He did this ^ , was AFTER His death and resurrection.

[10 references speak to this]

Bluto, I would remind you that there are multiple judgments:

* The Bema Seat of Christ which takes place after the church is caught up and taken to the Father's house

* The judgment of the sheep and the goats which takes place when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age

* The great white throne judgment which takes place at the end of the thousand years

As I mentioned before, when Jesus comes to gather the church, He does not return to the earth, but meets the church in the air and then according to John 14:1-3 takes us back to the Father's house

Revelation 19:6-8 reveals the bride/church as being in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb and that during the time of God's wrath Then verse 14 shows the bride/church following the Lord out of heaven to the earth riding on white horses. Suffice to say, in order to be at the wedding of the Lamb in heaven and follow Lord out of heaven to end the age, you would have to already be in heaven.

Well gee, I'm sorry to because I didn't see the Apostle Paul mention Daniel at 1 Thessolonians or at 2 Thessolonians either, let alone saying anywhere in the New Testament that Daniel is the key to understanding prophesy. My point is that if the Apostle Paul doesn't know what he is talking about you can't know.

And one more thing, how about you telling us all here what is the correct solution using Daniel as the solution to when the great tribulation occurs? Go ahead, I'll listen.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

My friend, the correct end time eschatology is crystal clear, unambiguous, and fully supported by the whole of the scriptures. Alternative views are simply error.

"THE GREAT tribulation" speaks of the second half of the [total] "7 years," which Daniel 7:25[27] and Daniel 12:1-4,6-7,10,13 speak of as well (parallel Rev13:5, and 12:6,14 and 11:2 [and Matt24:21]). Why don't you think so?

Sorry. You haven't the foggiest notion of the facts.

Of course not. The point is that Christ died once for all, and the next item on His agenda is "the judgment" and He will be the judge, notwithstanding His second coming.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Well then explain it to me.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I know there are various judgments, which judgment is Hebrews 9:27 referring as it relates to vs28?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

… compare also Daniel 7:20-21 (25-27) with the Rev13:5 and v.7

I believe that Acts 17:31's "because He has fixed [established, set] a day IN WHICH He will judge the world in righteousness through [/in] a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead" ...

that the "a day" ^ , here, is not referring merely to "a singular 24-hr day" (and I believe this commences well before His Second Coming/RETURN to the earth; and continues after that point as well)

All praises to Ahayah Bahasham Yashaya Wa Raach!
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Yes that’s one of the Truth Israelite teachers I listen to among others
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I notice that when people fear truth they go into attack mode. I see it all the time.
——Why?
Because you can’t argue with scripture!
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I’ve seen scripture quiet those who thought they were knowledgeable in the Word.
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If this truth were taught in the church everyone would understand scripture.
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And because they don’t teach scriptural truth what do people really understand?
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Everyone has been taught by someone and Regardless of teachers we still have to our own research to the truth!
And let the Holy Spirit help us!