The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?

Its called combining verses and especially what Jesus said.
But if you will be honest and look,you will find the pretrib rapture verses.
How we can post them,over and over,then you say there are none,is rediculous.
I have yet to hear you or any postrib examine rev 14 in light of 1 thes 4.

Nor any of the postribs come up with a single postrib rapture verse.
...and in light of THE UTTER IMPOSSIBILITY of a post trib rapture,we can eliminate that one as well as mid trib.
There are no verses that say you can't drive your car through a mountain.
But plenty on presumption and foolishness.
The "there are no verses" declaration ONLY APPLIES to post and mid trib rapture scenarios.
Try using a test fit.
The debate for non pretrib adherants has ALWAYS BEEN "There simply can not be a pretrib rapture". That is a notion. That is their starting place.
They are oblivious that they are totally debunked. Totally and completely debunked. Seems impossible,and yet they still believe what they will.

It is so easy to debunk it is almost comical

Heaven calls it the gt.
Tell them all about it.
Take my claims and show me where they are wrong.
I will wait.

In the greek it only says " departure".
"From the faith" is /could be implied.
It LITERALLY READS ;"...there will be a departure,then the man of sin shall be revealed"

That works either way for a pretrib rapture.
I can read it with either meaning.
You can not.

Nope.
It REQUIRES tremendous leaps.
Grand canyon leaps.

Not one according to the flesh (Jacob) will be saved. Israel is the born again name he named the church his bride..

I would agree . Jacob is a word used to describe natural unconverted man as one who grabs the heel of another as one who wrestles against flesh and blood. The things seen, having no and not little faith coming from a unseen God needed to overcome. The new name he named his bride the church Israel to represent the first born , In which Jacob the deceiver deceived Esau who saw no value in the things of God not seen (no faith ) Sold it the birth rite for a cup of soup. Isreal the born again name when defined shows the work of God converting or quickening the soul as a new creature..... having the power of God needed to overcome the Jacob's. *flesh and blood.

God defines the words he used to build his doctrines. You could say it the power to believe is all in the name the eternal not seen. . Never in what the eyes see the temporal.

Genesis 32:27-29 King James Version (KJV) And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

Or in other words. Why would you ask me my name as a rethorical ? I t just gave you the powerr to belive as the witness of God that we do have in these bodies of death.

All praises to Ahayah Bahasham Yashaya Wa Raach!
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I agree, and it’s not called “the” great Tribulation just great Tribulation.
Which means it’s still ongoing.

All praises to Ahayah Bahasham Yashaya Wa Raach!
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The 2 witnesses are not 2 people.

All praises to Ahayah Bahasham Yashaya Wa Raach!
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The 2 witnesses are not 2 people

The definite article ('the') IS in Revelation 7:14, here: https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/7-14.htm "THE tribulation THE great" … so yes, it is [and refers to the second HALF (lasting 1260 days) of the 7-yr period, not its entirety]


...people then get the wording in Joel 2:31 all screwy, from this ^ misunderstanding point...

They have mouths ,bodies,and are killed.
Take a look before going abstract

^ and don't forget the phrase in verse 4, which says, "before the Lord of the earth standing"



[note: I'm not suggesting that this phrase is why it means they are standing on the earth, but that this phrase is found elsewhere in Scripture]

Wrong.
It is proper to call it the because it is not "a" tribulation like others,or some made up 2000 yrs of tribulation.
It has a distict time frame. Two sets of 3.5 yrs. It has a middle,it has a distinct ending and beginning.
It is THE great tribulation spoken of in revelation.
THE great tribulation.

All praises to Ahayah Bahasham Yashaya Wa Raach!
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Rightly divide the word and see who it’s referring to.

All praises to Ahayah Bahasham Yashaya Wa Raach!
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Next time post all scriptures not just one to try and validate you view.
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Tribulation is ongoing but there’s coming a time when it will be the worse time for mankind.
In these scriptures I don’t see the word “the”!
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Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor euer shall be.
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Revelation 7:14 And I said vnto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and haue washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lambe.

I showed you where, in the Greek, Rev7:14 uses the definite article ("the").

I must admit I had to "chuckle" at all the post that followed this post #1 with a thousand different opinions from y'all. For example, it started at 70AD, or it started when Jesus said on the cross "It is finished." And someone said it stared in 1949.

So, let me make this suggestion? Please, take your time and read 1 Thessalonians (the whole book and it is short) and pay close attention to the words used in their context. Put yourself in the Apostle Paul's place and just read it slowly and prayerfully and "hopefully" you will see a pattern.

For instance, I noticed that it is all about the Lord Jesus Christ coming to us. Look at 1 Thess 1:10, "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He rasised from the deat, Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come."

Question? What kind of "wrath" is Paul talking about? Look at chapter 2 vs16, "hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But WRATH has come upon them to the utmost."

And at vs19, "For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? It is not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? Chapter 3. vs3, "so that no man may be disturbed by these afflictions; for you yourselves know THAT WE HAVE BEEN DESTINED FOR THIS." Vs7, for this reason, brethren, in all our distress and AFFLICTION we were comforted about you through faith."

The last verse of chapter 3. "so that He may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father AT THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS WITH ALL HIS SAINTS." Chapter 4:13, "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep/died, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope. Vs14, For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God WILL BRING WITH HIM, those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

Vs16, For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Vs17, Then we who are alive and and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord."

Question? Keep in mind this happens in a millesecond and it says we shall always be with the Lord. Do we go back to heaven or do we end up on earth? Now for Chapter 5. Paul explains don't worry about the times and epochs because it will come like a thief in the night. At vs4 he says we are not in darkness etc.

Vs5, We are children of light. Then we get to vs9, "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, vs10, who died for us, that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him." I believe the "wrath" being discussed here is the wrath that unbelievers will face because they are not saved. I do not believe it has anything to do with the wrath God pours out during the tribulation.

And if you read the rest of Chapter 5 you see Paul is encouraging them to build each other up and esteem others better than yourself. You can read the rest of the chapter yourselves. Anyway, this is my take on 1 Thessalonians and notice again, it is the Lord coming for us and I don't see any so-called rapture of Him coming for us and we return for the Lambs supper. Plus, I just remembered Hebrews 9:28, "so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation/deliverance without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him." One coming again and only one resurrection.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

2 Peter 2:1-3
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who brought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

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There will be tribulation and false teachers for every generation - every person. This is the tribulation and it was from the 1st Century AD to the present, and will continue into the future until Christ's Return.

Sorry. The key to end time prophesy is the book of Daniel. You dont use that as a reference forget about reaching a correct solution.

First of all this is silly to even debate, but let's see if your claim that the two witnesses are not people is true:

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3And I will empower my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4These witnesses are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5If anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouths and devours their enemies. In this way, anyone who wants to harm them must be killed. 6These witnesses have power to shut the sky so that no rain will fall during the days of their prophecy, and power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they wish.

7When the two witnesses have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will wage war with them, and will overpower and kill them. 8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city—figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where their Lord was also crucified. 9For three and a half days all peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will view their bodies and will not permit them to be laid in a tomb. 10And those who dwell on the earth will gloat over them, and will celebrate and send each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented them.

11But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God entered the two witnesses, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell upon those who saw them. 12And the witnesses heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud as their enemies watched them.
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The two witnesses are referred to in the scripture with personal pronouns:

V3 - And I will empower my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth

V5 - If anyone wants to harm them Fire proceeds from their mouths and devours their enemies

V5 - In this way, anyone who wants to harm them must be killed

V5 - When these two witnesses have finished their testimony

V6 - These witnesses have power to shut the sky so that no rain will fall

V7 - When the two witnesses have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will wage war with them, and will overpower and kill them.

V8 - Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city—figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where their Lord was also crucified.

V9 - For three and a half days all peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will view their bodies and will not permit them to be laid in a tomb.

V9 because these two prophets had tormented them.

V10 - And those who dwell on the earth will gloat over them, and will celebrate and send each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented them.

V11 - But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God entered the two witnesses, and they stood on their feet

Personal pronouns are pronouns that are associated primarily with a particular grammatical person. In this case them, their and they, is referring to the two witnesses as persons.

In v.3 the two witnesses are said to prophesy for 1260 days which would mean that they are prophets, i.e. men

In further support of them being individuals they are referred as two witnesses in verses 3, 4, 6, 7, 11, 12

In v.5 The two witnesses are also said to have mouths from which fire proceeds to kill their enemies

In v.7 it is stated that the beast that comes up out of the Abyss will kill the two witnesses which would demonstrate that they are alive and are therefore human beings.

V.8 states that the bodies of the two witnesses will lie in the streets of Jerusalem and will not allowed to be put in a tomb, which would also demonstrate that they are human beings by the use of the word "bodies" and "tomb."

Verse 11 states that after lying in the streets for 3 1/2 days, God will breath life in them and they will resurrect and ascend into heaven, which again would demonstrate that these two witnesses are human beings.

Do you still believe that they are not people?

All praises to Ahayah Bahasham Yashaya Wa Raach!
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The two witnesses are people but not just two people. Scripture is referring to a nation.
Two groups of people from the same nation.