The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?

[Ahwatukee]

You have a corrupt bible version.

Try this:

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

BIG difference.

Sorry, I've already looked at that many times. The "overspreading of abominations" is identified in Dan.12:11 as the abomination being set up on a wing of the temple, i.e. the Holy place. That's why I included Dan.12:11 in the previous post which supports what Dan.9:27 says. I'm even using the KJV version below since you seem to be partial to that.

"And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days."

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Both scriptures above are referring to Dan.9:27. Here some of the other translations:

As far as having a corrupt bible version, I look at all the versions. I am continually comparing the translation of scriptures from all of the major translations, as well as the definitions of Hebrew and Greek words and how and where they are used. You're not speaking to some newbie regarding the word of God, as I have been studying this all of my life. I have debated all of these things over and over again for many years. And unfortunately will continue to debate them, not because I don't want to, but because instead of people doing their own studies, they are content with adopting the false teachings of men on practically ever Biblical subject.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11 go tegether. Daniel 9:27 is something entirely separate and different.

No, Dan.11:31 is in reference to when Antiochus Epiphanes desecrated the altar in 167 B.C. Dan.9:27, 12:11 and Matt.24:15 are all in reference to that future abomination being set up in the future temple.

Since you believe what you believe, I suppose that this is one where we will have to agree to disagree.

Blessings in Christ!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So, regarding this portion of the quote (alongside the other parts I had also mentioned), this portion should be understood as being only one aspect (of what is in Israel's future):

"...has its final meaning in the coming day of the Lord, which all the prophets announced. It is the same our Lord predicts in Matthew 24:29-30. For Israel the bitter day of mounting, lamentation and woe would come." --Gaebelein [underline and bracketed insert mine]

Matthew 24:29-31 is also parallel with Isaiah 27:12-13 (re: Israel, believing remnant of) being "gathered ONE BY ONE [not 'AS ONE' as WE/'the Church which is His body' will be]" to worship the Lord "IN JERUSALEM" (i.e. in the MK age, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth [not at our "rapture"], at the END of the tribulation of those days, which is the CONTEXT of the Olivet Discourse [except for about 12 vv. in Lk21 about the 70ad events]). So, whereas there will be some "unbelieving" (of Israel) at that time, some of them WILL be "believers" ("the WISE" of Dan12:1-4,10 in contrast to the other half of/in v.10 here ["none of the wicked shall understand, but the WISE WILL understand" (context: Israel's future--the "future" aspects shown in Amos 8 )])

 

[KJV1611]

Amos 8:2 (part of) has the same phrase found in Amos 7:8 "I will not spare [/pass by]…"

You make a couple of excellent points TDW so I'm going to respond to each separately.

Amo 7:8 And the LORD said unto me, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A plumbline. Then said the Lord, Behold, I will set a plumbline in the midst of my people Israel: I will not again pass by them any more:

Amos 7:8 is talking about the exact same thing as Amos 8 which gives us more insight into exactly what Amos meant in chapter 8 and it also nails down the timing of both chapters.

The plumbline is Christ. The plumbline came, did away with the old covenant and cursed the fig tree so that it would never ever bear fruit again forever.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You make a couple of excellent points TDW so I'm going to respond to each separately.
Amo 7:8 And the LORD said unto me, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A plumbline. Then said the Lord, Behold, I will set a plumbline in the midst of my people Israel: I will not again pass by them any more:
Amos 7:8 is talking about the exact same thing as Amos 8 which gives us more insight into exactly what Amos meant in chapter 8 and it also nails down the timing of both chapters.
The plumbline is Christ. The plumbline came, did away with the old covenant and cursed the fig tree so that it would never ever bear fruit again forever.

Yes, but note that "the fig tree" is not identified as "Israel" according to the following:

--Lk13:6 - "And He was speaking this parable: "A certain man had a fig tree planted IN his vineyard; and he came seeking fruit on it, and not did find any."

--this verse shows a distinction btw the "a fig tree" and the "vineyard"

--Isa5:7 says, "For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel..."

--therefore, since the passage says that the "a fig tree" is [or, was] planted IN Israel [/the 'vineyard'], and is not identified as "Israel" itself, then it behooves us to discover just what it is representing INSTEAD (for I do believe it speaks of something distinct from "Israel" itself--Israel itself [as a ppl] is not what will "never bear fruit again," but the other thing, that will not See what I mean? [see again Amos 8:7-15--and keeping in mind what I'd put about Rom9:26/Hos1:10! (re: Isr's "future")])

 

[KJV1611]

Amos 8:2 (part of) has the same phrase found in Amos 7:8 "I will not spare [/pass by]…"

As I see it, Amos 8:2 should be read with vv.7-15 also in mind;

and then also (in mind), considering what is being said in:

--Romans 9:26/Hosea 1:10 (regarding Israel [this is key, along with considering the above-mentioned vv.7-15 (re: Israel's "future"]); and

--Romans 9:25/Hosea 2:23b (regarding the Gentiles)

[not distinguishing these, leads to all sorts of skewed ideas, as I see it]

...and we DO see Lk21:24b saying (of Israel), "and shall be led away captive into all the nations" [comp.Lk21:23,20,24 with Matt22:7, and then note that v.8 is speaking of "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" which necessarily took place AFTER the 70ad events of v.7! (see Rev1:1/7:3--in "[The] Revelation's" LATER 95ad writings)]



Regarding Amos 8:9, which says, "And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:," one author/commentator says, "The verse, while it has a certain application to that generation [in Amos's day], whose glory should end like the sun going down at noon, has its final meaning in the coming day of the Lord, which all the prophets announced. It is the same our Lord predicts in Matthew 24:29-30. For Israel the bitter day of mounting, lamentation and woe would come." --Gaebelein [underline and bracketed insert mine]

Hos 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Who is the only group of people in the bible that are considered to be sons of God? It's not flesh descendants of Israel.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Hos 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Who is the only group of people in the bible that are considered to be sons of God? It's not flesh descendants of Israel.

You are saying that, because you do not grasp what is being said in Rom9:6.

In that verse, there is the believing Israel within the whole of Israel. [ALL about Israel.] No Gentiles are being referred to here, nor the Church which is His body. Romans 9-11 (chpts) is speaking of "nations" ("Israel [singular nation]" and "the Gentiles [plural nations]"--and "the Olive Tree" of chpt 11 is representing "God's governmental ways upon the earth" [not representing, as some suggest, "Israel" nor "Jesus" nor "salvation" etc...]).


Check out this, where it shows "ALL 73 usages of 'Israel' in the NT" ALL mean "Israel" (Rom9:6 is only 1 of 3 commonly misapplied verses, and there's only ONE verse on which ALL 'covenant theology' proponents agree speaks of what they think it does):

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/reformed/israelaf.htm

 

[KJV1611]

Yes, but note that "the fig tree" is not identified as "Israel" according to the following:

--Lk13:6 - "And He was speaking this parable: "A certain man had a fig tree planted IN his vineyard; and he came seeking fruit on it, and not did find any."

--this verse shows a distinction btw the "a fig tree" and the "vineyard"

--Isa5:7 says, "For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel..."

--therefore, since the passage says that the "a fig tree" is [or, was] planted IN Israel [/the 'vineyard'], and is not identified as "Israel" itself, then it behooves us to discover just what it is representing INSTEAD (for I do believe it speaks of something distinct from "Israel" itself--Israel itself [as a ppl] is not what will "never bear fruit again," but the other thing, that will not See what I mean? [see again Amos 8:7-15--and keeping in mind what I'd put about Rom9:26/Hos1:10! (re: Isr's "future")])

In your opinion who do you think the disciples thought the fig tree was... from their response, it sounds as if they knew.

Mat 21:20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!

 

[Ahwatukee]

I left it out because it has nothing to do with the return of Christ.

Beg pardon! It has everything to do with the return of Christ. At some point Israel is going to say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. I don't how you can say that it has nothing to do with the return of Christ when it is apart of that scripture. It is important to read the entire context.

As far as your claim that God is done with Israel, why would Paul say "all Israel will be saved"? Not only that, but we have a group of 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel who are sealed during the tribulation period. So, unless you change the identity of those 144,000 this group alone would be proof that God has not abandoned His people. I would warn you as well that "whoever blesses you I will bless. But whoever curses you I will curse." By you claiming that God is done with Israel, you demonstrate that you are against them. The church has not replaced Israel. They both have different programs.

There is no mention of 3 1/2 years nor is there any mention of Israel being cared for in the wilderness.

"And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed in the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head."

Who is the woman?

"Then Joseph had another dream and told it to his brothers. “Look,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

He told his father and brothers, but his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream that you have had? Will your mother and brothers and I actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

Sun = Jacob

Moon = Jacob's wive(s)

Eleven Stars = Eleven of Joseph's brothers, with Joseph being the twelfth star

Therefore, the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars represents the nation Israel.

What happens to the woman?

"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place for her to be nourished for 1,260 days."

"But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle to fly from the presence of the serpent to her place in the wilderness, where she was nourished for a time, and times, and half a time." (Time=1 year, Times=two years half a time=half a year) Total - 3 1/2 years

1260 days and a time, times and half a time is 3 1/2 years, which is referring to the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. God uses the symbols of the sun, moon and stars of Joseph's dream to identified the woman in Revelation.

By the way, you never answer the question I asked. Do you think the verses I quoted would be considered as Jesus cursing the fig tree - Israel?

I was the one who asked you that! My point for asking is that just because a fig tree is used in a parable it is not always referring to Israel. The fig tree being cursed is an example, which is not referring to Israel. If anything, it was a teaching on the power of faith.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Hos 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.


This can only be referring to "Israel" (the verse in Rom9:25 [in contrast to this v.26!] is about "the Gentiles" [v.26 is about "Israel" and "Israel's FUTURE"])

 

[KJV1611]

You are saying that, because you do not grasp what is being said in Rom9:6.

In that verse, there is the believing Israel within the whole of Israel. [ALL about Israel.] No Gentiles are being referred to here, nor the Church which is His body. Romans 9-11 (chpts) is speaking of "nations" ("Israel [singular nation]" and "the Gentiles [plural nations]"--and "the Olive Tree" of chpt 11 is representing "God's governmental ways upon the earth" [not representing, as some suggest, "Israel" nor "Jesus" nor "salvation" etc...])

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

I do grasp it, there are two Israels in that verse. The first mentioned is the Israel of God (anybody who is saved by grace through faith) and the other Israel is flesh descendants of Israel.

Not all of flesh descendants of Israel are part of the TRUE Israel (spiritual descendants).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

In your opinion who do you think the disciples thought the fig tree was... from their response, it sounds as if they knew.

Mat 21:20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!

It sounds to me like they at least "knew" the fig tree (object) displayed before them was "withered away"... it's difficult to tell whether they fully understood what it represented (it could be that they unwittingly "prophesied" just like that one dude at Jesus' trials, ya know ). To me, it doesn't matter whether they "understood" it or not, the fact remains, the "a fig tree" isn't the same identity as the "vineyard" (which itself, is "Israel")

 

[KJV1611]

Beg pardon! It has everything to do with the return of Christ. At some point Israel is going to say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. I don't how you can say that it has nothing to do with the return of Christ when it is apart of that scripture. It is important to read the entire context.

As far as your claim that God is done with Israel, why would Paul say "all Israel will be saved"? Not only that, but we have a group of 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel who are sealed during the tribulation period. So, unless you change the identity of those 144,000 this group alone would be proof that God has not abandoned His people. I would warn you as well that "whoever blesses you I will bless. But whoever curses you I will curse." By you claiming that God is done with Israel, you demonstrate that you are against them. The church has not replaced Israel. They both have different programs.



"And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed in the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head."

Who is the woman?

"Then Joseph had another dream and told it to his brothers. “Look,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

He told his father and brothers, but his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream that you have had? Will your mother and brothers and I actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

Sun = Jacob

Moon = Jacob's wive(s)

Eleven Stars = Eleven of Joseph's brothers, with Joseph being the twelfth star

Therefore, the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars represents the nation Israel.

What happens to the woman?

"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place for her to be nourished for 1,260 days."

"But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle to fly from the presence of the serpent to her place in the wilderness, where she was nourished for a time, and times, and half a time." (Time=1 year, Times=two years half a time=half a year) Total - 3 1/2 years

1260 days and a time, times and half a time is 3 1/2 years, which is referring to the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. God uses the symbols of the sun, moon and stars of Joseph's dream to identified the woman in Revelation.



I was the one who asked you that! My point for asking is that just because a fig tree is used in a parable it is not always referring to Israel. The fig tree being cursed is an example, which is not referring to Israel. If anything, it was a teaching on the power of faith.

Your beliefs are so far off from that I really can't debate it with you... sorry.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Beg pardon! It has everything to do with the return of Christ. At some point Israel is going to say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. I don't how you can say that it has nothing to do with the return of Christ when it is apart of that scripture. It is important to read the entire context.

As far as your claim that God is done with Israel, why would Paul say "all Israel will be saved"? Not only that, but we have a group of 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel who are sealed during the tribulation period. So, unless you change the identity of those 144,000 this group alone would be proof that God has not abandoned His people. I would warn you as well that "whoever blesses you I will bless. But whoever curses you I will curse." By you claiming that God is done with Israel, you demonstrate that you are against them. The church has not replaced Israel. They both have different programs.



"And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed in the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head."

Who is the woman?

"Then Joseph had another dream and told it to his brothers. “Look,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

He told his father and brothers, but his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream that you have had? Will your mother and brothers and I actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

Sun = Jacob

Moon = Jacob's wive(s)

Eleven Stars = Eleven of Joseph's brothers, with Joseph being the twelfth star

Therefore, the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars represents the nation Israel.

What happens to the woman?

"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place for her to be nourished for 1,260 days."

"But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle to fly from the presence of the serpent to her place in the wilderness, where she was nourished for a time, and times, and half a time." (Time=1 year, Times=two years half a time=half a year) Total - 3 1/2 years

1260 days and a time, times and half a time is 3 1/2 years, which is referring to the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. God uses the symbols of the sun, moon and stars of Joseph's dream to identified the woman in Revelation.



I was the one who asked you that! My point for asking is that just because a fig tree is used in a parable it is not always referring to Israel. The fig tree being cursed is an example, which is not referring to Israel. If anything, it was a teaching on the power of faith.

You are not disagreeing with me, but with the word of God. I gave you the scriptures and the answers and still you don't believe.

It's called proper exegesis. You ought to try it.

 

[KJV1611]

Hos 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.


This can only be referring to "Israel" (the verse in Rom9:25 [in contrast to this v.26!] is about "the Gentiles" [v.26 is about "Israel" and "Israel's FUTURE"])

Let's look at it this way. Is a Christ rejecting Jew today considered to be a son of God?
Is a Christ accepting Jew today considered to be a son of God?
Only believers are considered to be sons of God. Hos 1:10 is talking about Jews who converted to Christ, they are the sons of the living God.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Your beliefs are so far off from that I really can't debate it with you... sorry.

Amazing! I provided all the scriptures and you say that my beliefs are far off. You can't debate it because what I have been teaching you is the truth.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Let's look at it this way. Is a Christ rejecting Jew today considered to be a son of God?
Is a Christ accepting Jew today considered to be a son of God?
Only believers are considered to be sons of God. Hos 1:10 is talking about Jews who converted to Christ, they are the sons of the living God.

"And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob." Rom.11:26

Do you have a problem with the above?

 

[RickyZ]

You are not disagreeing with me, but with the word of God. I gave you the scriptures and the answers and still you don't believe.

It's called proper exegesis. You ought to try it.

It always makes me cringe when someone says their interpretation of the word of God IS the word of God.

 

[KJV1611]

"And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob." Rom.11:26

Do you have a problem with the above?

Why would I have a problem with that? The Deliverer came and removed godlessness from Jacob 2000 years ago. The problem is with your idea of who "all Israel" is, it's not all flesh descendants of Israel because obviously Judas, the people who yelled crucify him and several million more Jews from the time of Christ until now ARE NOT saved.

Do you agree with this or do you think all flesh descendants of Israel will be saved?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
I do grasp it, there are two Israels in that verse. The first mentioned is the Israel of God (anybody who is saved by grace through faith) and the other Israel is flesh descendants of Israel.
Not all of flesh descendants of Israel are part of the TRUE Israel (spiritual descendants).

Here is where I disagree, and this is also explained [somewhat] in the article I supplied at link.

I showed, that Gal6:16 is the ONLY [ONE] verse in which all "covenant theology" proponents agree on (when they say they think the phase "the Israel of God" there is speaking of "the Church"--it isn't!)

The reason I say it is NOT speaking of "the Church which is His body" (as a whole) is due to how the verse is written, with other phrasing between "[peace] be UPON them" and "and UPON the Israel of God" (the "between" phrase, separating the two, being "and mercy"). If it had been written, "be UPON them, AND [/EVEN] UPON the Israel of God," then conceivably they could be referring to ONE and THE SAME [entity, for lack of a better way of saying it], b/c the word "AND" can mean "EVEN" (as though, it is REPEATING the same item in another way),

...but here an intervening phrase is injected, to show that they [the TWO "UPONs"] are distinct... "[peace] be UPON them" speaks of the portion of the Church which is His body that is made up of Gentiles, whereas "AND UPON the Israel of God" is zeroing in on the portion of the Church which is His body which consists of "THOSE OF [nation of] ISRAEL who BELIEVED!" (Yes, they are * "ONE BODY"... but he is addressing them distinctly due to the context/subject matter of this specific passage)


[*can apply to both the ONE BODY NOW, or even to those of Israel, in Israel's FUTURE aspects "[those of Israel] WHO WILL BELIEVE"--IOW, either way, "the Israel of God" is speaking of "those OF ISRAEL who BELIEVE/WILL BELIEVE" (it is not speaking of "Gentiles" who believe and then "become Israel" by virtue of faith. This is NOT what Gal6:16 is conveying, nor what Rom2:29 is speaking of)]