The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?

Yes, all of the things mentioned in the passage will indeed happen - just not all on the day of the Return of Christ. (the first day of the Second Coming of Christ)

However, the last sentence of the quote above is not true.

The prophecy of Daniel (the one we are talking about) has been fulfilled.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are the tribulation, which is God's wrath and which is initiated by the opening of the first seal. The first seal rider on the white horse is representing the coming antichrist. He is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse in Revelation 19:11 which is the Lord.

The first four seals results in a fourth of the earth being killed within the first 3 1/2 years, which based on the current population would be over 1.7 billion people. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be the worst events to take place in the history of the world. That said, the seals would hardly fit that description if their results took place over 2000 years. In fact it wouldn't even be noticed. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will not be like normal worldly events, but be the worst time in the history of the world and they will have the entire worlds complete attention.

The great tribulation is 3 1/2 years in length which begins at the setting up of the abomination (Dan.9:27, Matt.24:15-22) and continues until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. The wrath of God will take place within that last seven years in fulfillment of the seventy sevens that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem.

Also, since believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then the Lord's promise to catch the church up must take place prior to the first seal being opened, which again initiates God's wrath. That said, the first seal has not yet been opened, else the Lord would have already gathered the church.

I've been studying end-time events for 45 years and I've looked at every scenario and the seals being spread over a period of 2000 is not possible. We are quickly approaching the gathering of the church, which will be followed by the apostasy, the revealing of the antichrist and God's wrath, with Jesus returning after the 7th bowl has been poured out.

I'm always looking at the Greek, the definitions of words and comparing the translations of verses side by side.

Jesus did not say that it would begin to occur before the "current generation dies out." That is implied based on the erroneous interpretation that "this generation" is referring to the generation that Jesus was living in. However, the generation that Jesus was referring to is identified by all of those signs taking place that He listed. The setting up of the abomination in the Holy place within the temple is one of those signs and has yet to take place. In short, without the fulfillment of those signs, you have no fulfillment of that generation where they are to take place in.


Gary, you have listened to and adopted the teachings of men. When Jesus quoted Dan.9:27, he referred to it as a future event saying "when you see" meaning that it had not yet happened. Therefore, the setting up of the AOD could not have been fulfilled in 167 B.C. else Jesus would have been warning readers about an event that would have already taken place, according to your claim. Consequently, from the time he said it until now, the AOD is still yet to take place.

Furthermore, the parenthetic insert ( Let the reader understand, ) was/is to bring the readers attention to the fact that according to Daniel was to take place in the middle of those literal seven years. Once the church has been caught up then that antichrist will be revealed establishing his seven year covenant, in the middle of which is when that abomination will be set up.

Please define in detail the word 'apostasy' as you have used it in the quote above.

And as I continue to point out, the generation that Jesus was talking about is dependent upon all of those signs taking place. And not just those only, because they take place during the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, some of which are mentioned in Olivet Discourse. The fulfillment of those signs is what identifies the generation that Jesus was speaking about by saying "when you see all these things happening." Therefore, until you have those things happening, then none of the previous generations was that generation. Understand?

The reference in Matthew and Mark to the AoD was NOT to Daniel 9:27 -- it was to Daniel 11:31. Daniel 9:27 is NOT talking about the AoD.

Fist of all, God is not done with Israel. In Revelation 12, the woman which is identified as the nation Israel which is verified by Genesis 37:9-10, will flee out into the desert and will be cared for by God during the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. During the millennial kingdom, Jerusalem will be the capital of the world with Jesus, the church and the great tribulation saints, ruling with Him.

Furthermore, if God was done with Israel, who is Jesus speaking about in the Olivet Discourse when He warns those in in Judea to flee to the mountains? And when they are fleeing Jesus says, "pray that your flight will not occur on the Sabbath?" The Sabbath would pertain to the nation Israel who remain under the law because they did not recognize Jesus as their Messiah.

As far as Israel becoming a nation 1948, I'm sure that there is prophetic significance. The fact that Israel has been ready to build her temple complete with all of its furnishings according to the law, adds to the fact that she is ready to begin building her temple which will be provided by that antichrist when he makes his seven year covenant. And of course we know that he breaks that covenant when causes the sacrifices and offerings to cease and sets up that abomination.

When the trees blossom is just an comparison example:

Trees blossoming = summer is near, in the same way when you see all of these signs taking place this is the that last generation.

You conveniently left off a very important part of that verse, which says:

"You will not see Me again until you say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." This in fact is exactly what Israel will realize and say sometime during that last 3 1/2 years when they are being cared for out in the wilderness by God.

No, KJV1611, like all preterists, believe that Jesus returned in 70 AD ending the age. To them the end of the age (of the law) was fulfilled by the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem. To full preterists, the resurrection is included as taking place in 70 AD.

These verses in the three accounts of the Olivet Discourse are telling us the same thing:

Matthew 24:15-16
Mark 13:14
Luke 21:20-21a

KJV1611 is a full-preterist?

KJV1611, are you a full-preterist?

If I ever knew that - I guess I forgot about it...

"Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction"

Strong's Concordance
apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Definition: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.

HELPS Word-studies
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

The word apostasia is only used twice, once here and the other is in Acts 21:21

"Now they have been informed about you, that you teach all Jews among the Gentiles apostasy from Moses, telling them not to circumcise the children nor to walk in the customs."

The word is used of turning away from, or leaving from a former standing.

If by chance you are looking at the word "apostasia" to mean departing up into the air, the word cannot be used in that way. I've debated on this belief many times where people take the English translation of "departure" and attempt to make it mean to depart up in the air. However, it cannot possibly be used in that way, because in these two scriptures, the definition would have to be a departure from the faith or in the case of Acts 21:21 apostacy from the law of Moses. It just can't be used to mean to depart up into the air, in case that is where you were going with this.

Blessings in Christ!

I truly don't know how you can even suggest that. Here is the scripture:

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

In support of this, the angel later tells the following:

"And from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation set up, there will be 1,290 days"

So yes, in Matt.24:15 Jesus is referring to Daniel 9:27. Why would you say that it isn't when the AOD is mentioned in both scriptures?

The problem is, new heavens and new earth doesn't mean new soil and new space but a new mindset, the mind of Christ in people. When the sinners in Noah's time were wiped out by the flood, it was said the old heavens and earth was wiped out. The heavens and earth which are now (people), are reserved for fire and that fire is already kindled- remember Jesus saying He wishes the fire was already kindled?

But i agree with you that it is not yet achieved until it is fully achieved.

The angel clearly told Dan that the prophesies concern the time of the end.

Not sure if he is a full preterist or not, just that he believes the same that preterist do believing that the prophecy of Jesus' return took place in 70 AD. That being the case and the fact that the resurrection takes place prior to Jesus return to the earth, then I would think that he would believe that the resurrection has also taken place.

Daniel 11:31 is referring to when Antiochus Epiphanies sacrificed a pig on the altar in 167 BC which of course has already taken place. The setting of the abomination mentioned in Daniel 9:27 and 12:11 will be done by the coming antichrist which is yet future. For more information, check out "Got Questions." They are in agreement with what I believe.

https://www.gotquestions.org/abomination-desolation.html

SMH

I know what the word means...

Please stop "playing your tape" and tell me what it very specifically means to you.

It is commonly defined with the phrase 'falling away' (2 Thessalonians 2).

What I am asking you to be very specific about is -- what exactly-and-precisely do you believe the nature of this 'falling away' is and from what is the 'falling away'?

You have a corrupt bible version.

Try this:

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

BIG difference.

The Great Tribulation

1. As explained in Revelation 6, it is not an extra ordinary event that people can marvel, it is nothing more than death through: sword (wars), famine (natural disasters), Beasts of the earth (accidents), pestilence (diseases). These are the only ways through which people (believers or not) leave this earth from Abel and Cain's time. The only reason it is referred to as great tribulation during these end times is that satan has been given reign and those that die in Christ rest from their labors while those that are not in Christ are definitely in satans grip and are lost forever.

2. The great tribulation is directed to God's people while the wrath of God directed to non believers both running concurrently. It is just the same thing but toward two different groups. The harvest is just one. An accident kills both believers and non believers at one go. The great Trib is commissioned by Christ Himself (opening the seals) towards believers because He purchased them by His own blood meaning that He also went through the process.

3. There's not going to be an extraordinary event in these end times. Don't expect two powerful people prophesying with signs/ angels flying mid air blowing trumpets/ a powerful person in position of authority beheading believers left, right and center/ angels riding a cloud holding a sharp sickle. Just like in the days of Noah/Lot, everything will be normal, people will be drinking and eating and making merry

4. When did the great tribulation start?

Right about this time:

Rev 14:13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

That was sometime late in the 1st or early 2nd century, it will continue as long as people continue dying.