Question about Jesus being the Son of God

Your insight explains a great deal and I thank you. One thing though; he states he is a believer. Hopefully believers read all of Scripture, not just the OT. Again, thank you for you insight. God bless 😎

How did I avoid the question? 'Where in Scripture is it taught that Jesus was created?'

Idk, being born as a man maybe? The reason I don't copy and past Matthew, or Isaiah 53 is because it's so plainly obvious. Anyone born as a person is a created being. However, numerous times here I've clarified myself and agreed that the Spirit given Yeshua existed from the creation and in fact was He whom which the creation came from and through. Yet, no matter how much I agree with this fact my questions about how a body is 'not created' get met with distain and eventually my faith is questioned. Because of my questions. A trait of Christians that keeps me from being able to properly fellowship with them. Too many are offended and are playing identity politics, even if unwittingly.

thanks for the chuckle! You seem to be aware of yiddishkiet. Thanks! Jews tend to respond with questions. The answers are supposed to be self evident. Like, Was Jesus a man? Hence, he was formed in the womb of a woman. (was he?) So obviously, if the answer is yes to the question you have your answer. Why should I have need to post the verse were it states Jesus was born of Miriam? When it's obvious by any understanding of reality that all men born of the flesh are a created being.

Or do those here believe his body was not created, not human? I've seen some clarify that crazy thought, but most are dogmatically sticking to the creeds of the church fathers over any form of rational discussion.


Oh, yes. I've read Isaiah 53. I've actually done an awesome study throughout the whole book of Isaiah that correlates the gospel and the restoration of Israel all from Isaiah alone. Just about all the theology we find in the new testament we can find in the old testament.

I don't identify as Christian, this forum does not have an identity for Messianic Jew, or Jewish Believer which is what I identify as.
o.k. And the cross, especially the Maltese cross is identical to the image that Christians were wearing when they put Jews to death just for being Jewish. Your point? I just explained what the image means to me, and clarified that i'm not wiccan. Why are you being so pedantic?

Smooth said:

Where in Scripture is it taught that Jesus was created?

Click to expand...

Jesus, as the Son of man was created from the coruptibed seed in herited from his mother. typified as sinful . The wrath of God being reveled a aging, suffering dying creation. .

God is not a man as us and niether is there a fleshly mediator to stand between God not seen and man seen as a infallible interpreter..

Salvation is not reckoned after by the flesh of Jesus. he dsaid it profits for nothing. We walk by faith the unseen eternal.

If that was true as after the flesh a person would be declaring to be the Son of man, Jesus with power, according to the flesh of holiness, by the his birth. Then we could exalt Mary as queen of heaven : turning things upside down. Son of man according to the flesh or Son of God according to the unseen Spirit.?.

Romans 1:3-5 King James Version (KJV) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Salvation is not reckoned after by the flesh of Jesus. Again...If that was true a person would be declaring to be the Son of man with power, according to the flesh of holiness, by the his birth. Then we could exalt Mary as queen of heaven : turning things upside down

Romans 1:3-5 King James Version (KJV) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

No such thing as holiness of the flesh. Now you see it then never again...

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.2 Corinthians 5:16

...
No, I'm trying to figure out where and how we are misunderstanding one another where concerns the nature of God, and thought something like the creeds which clearly spell out the nature of Jesus and the Trinity would be a simple way to do that.

That way we are on the same page and not potentially making any false assumptions about the beliefs of one another and could also avoid talking in circles..

We can't go beyond scripture in our teachings and I make the attempt to never do so.

What would being a Jew have to do with anything in respect to the flesh? God is not a man as us!

thanks

yes he does state he is a believer

I attended a Messianic congregation for a period of about 2 years

they preferred we did not say 'Jesus' as Gentile believers so as not to offend anyone. I complied, but I find things like that could be taken offensively right there. I choose not to do so

understanding and patience is what we hope for in any real quesionning

besides, we can all use a bigger and better education and research and study instead of posting knee jerk reactions (I'm not saying you are doing this, but it certainly exists here and in the general population period because people 'feel' personally attacked because of what they may happen to believe)

I first began to really study scripture when I had inadvertendly hired a JW and she began her 'witness' to me

IMO you avoided this question to you from smooth post 26

I don't know about numerous times...I just picked the obvious difficulties to try and respond to

the gospels state that the Holy Spirit Himself conceived the baby that she bore and named Jesus as instructed by an angel

so yes, Jesus grew in Mary's womb but not by the will of a man, but by the will of God. I do understand what you are presenting as a logical arguement, and while I do find much logic in scripture, scripture is also plain there is much we do not understand. I am not one of those people who have faith in faith. I can assure you I have come close to exhausting God's patience when it comes to questions...and that is ongoing...but thing is, God apparently has an inexhaustible supply of patience. while Genesis states we are made in His image, an image is a reflection. the mirror we see ourselves in, is not the actual person.

I think honest questions should be answered but some people are uncomfortbale with probing questions. that's not necessairly a slam on them, but it is not unusual....when a person has questionned God every which way and has not been 'struck dead' they might come to think questions are ok if coming from a heart that is sincere

I have even dated a few Jewish men in years gone by and always found them to be very good conversationalists...you are welcome re the chuckle.

regarding born of flesh, yes Jesus was born of flesh but not conceived by flesh. the Bible indicates Jesus has always been in exsistance but not always as we find Him in the gospels. however, it is apparent Jesus had a body when He resurrected...but not as prior to His resurrection. I therefore disagree with those who believe Jesus was spirit only.

while we have a spirit, we are not yet as we will be when we see 'face to face' as Paul states

I asked about Isaiah 53 specifically because it seems many 'Rabbis' will not teach from that book because of exactly the correlation you describe

what I can say I believe and some agree and some do not, is that Jesus was both human and God

Couple of newsflashes for ya.
1. Messianic Jews ARE Christian, identify or no. With your reasoning, you might as well wear a pentagram, and make it mean whatever you want it to mean.

2. The Bible IS inspired canon! They are one in the same. That's the whole point. So people can't add their fav. non canonical books to inspired Scripture.

I believe some of those books are valuable for historical and corroborating purposes, but they are not Biblical Scripture.

once again you jump to conclusions based on YOUR understanding

do you have a video for it?

reading his posts reveals what he believes

same for every one of us

I probably should refrain by even stating the above, but recent 'transactions' with you have indicated you have a very low tolerance for anyone to express a thought you have not first conceived of yourself

without prejudice no doubt

I would like to add to people in general, that way too many here are AFRAID of being tested by questions that unsettle you

God is. He already knows. it's fine.

I'm very aware of what the creeds do, and how they have been used throughout history. Especially against those who did not agree with said creeds.
Yes, like Marcionism for one. But instead of correcting the angst against all things Jewish they solidified their position against it. I'm not a self loathing Jew that I would entertain such a diatribe against my people and our faith.
I am not upset. I expected every bit of what happened. Yet I continue to pray for reconciliation. What is more disappointing is you don't seem to recognize my words of agreement and seemingly continue to see me as upset by your belief in Jesus divinity. Tell me, in my clarification to ed penn about my avatar (hmmm avatar means...) what verses did I identify that this image reminds me of? All the verses describe the divinity and holiness of the Holy One of Israel, Yeshua our Messiah. That image represents to me the image of humanity, of our faith, of our being in Messiah. But to others it's satanic and wiccan. o.k. sorry for you. And I move on.

You mean it doesn't matter in regards to righteousness and salvation. I don't get a free ride, and I don't get in by observing the Torah. Yep. However, as a Jew my ethnicity matters greatly to me. Becoming a believer did not abolish or fulfill my Jewishness. it completed it. This is a huge issue within the mindset of Christians, and why I can't identify as one. They believe and teach that in order to become saved i must forsake and give up all I am. And all because they misinterpret and/or misunderstand Paul's writings about there being no Jew or Greek in Messiah. And about our covenant being transformed into a new one, like the moon.

As long as Christianity declares that being Jewish means nothing, it will continue to misrepresent the Messiah it claims to. I have come to believe that unless you understand Israel's redemption you will never grasp the details of your own.' The bible, the word, the promise, the Spirit all lead to the redemption of Israel, and the nations of the world. This is my perspective. And my perspective of the church as exemplified through her followers words and actions is the Spirit leads to the redemption of the church, and the rest, especially those apostate Jews are damned. To be cast away like sin. This is my perspective of the church. Care to change it? I'm truly praying for reconciliation.

See, as much as you probably believe I'm lost without the understanding of the church creeds, I believe the church will never see the revival it seeks until it shows true love and repentance to the Jewish people. When the nations who have received the blessings of Abraham turn to the physical children of Abraham and truly offer that which was given to you to us. Then all Israel will see salvation. And the order of things will be restored. But sadly, I see the church today as in the same condition as unfaithful Israel back then. Today's church apparently needs to learn the same lesson in humility. I believe all will continue to be taken from you until you truly encourage us Jews to say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. And embrace the Messiah's plan for our nation's future, instead of declaring it defunct and 'old' news. For me the church has twisted so much of what was given that I can not in all good conscience partake of it's replacement theology teachings.

How did something that was initially so completely and utterly Jewish become considered something
completely and utterly non-Jewish?

Why did the gentile believers begin to turn against the Jewish believers as early as the middle of the
first century?

These are things I'd like Christians to consider.

many Messianic Jews prefer NOT to be called Christians

read some history books

it will enlighten you as to the reasons for that distinction

while I do not encourage people to 'get their scripture' from non biblical books, I have seen enough disagreement here from ACTUAL SCRIPTURE and DENIAL of same, to almost laugh at your assertions if they were not so sad

and I do not refer to this thread when saying that

it's a forum. not a litmus test for what people believe...and see? you can even in all fairness apply that to yourself as well, which fact declares you above judgement

ironic

I don't know anything about your avatar and I don't know why your mentioning your avatar to me, I never mentioned it not even once.

I am seeking with you, a reconciliation in this discussion, so that we can either agree to disagree, or so that we can agree with one another, or so we can discuss scripture knowing where one another stands..

3 choices, and I don't care which.. I just want to stop wondering where you stand and whether I'm coming from the wrong place in speaking.

I like firm ground.. not a ?

Your being cagey about what you believe, unnecessarily so unless your here discussing with me in order to espouse some horrendous heresy and you don't want anyone to catch on..

As far as you thinking I hate you or have something against you for being Jewish I dont. I literally don't see your ethnicity - which is odd considering until the day I was saved I harbored more than a little hatred, but in one day it all left through the power and working of the Holy Spirit.

Out of the 12 tribes of Israel only a couple I believe survived knowing who they were ethnically. It is possible I am part of one of those 12 tribes - we just dont know and it just doesn't matter, what matters is who we are in Christ.

I forsook all for Christ and didn't look back, if you want to hang on to ethnicity then more power to you.. I'm not here to say your right or wrong, I'm simply here trying to have a discussion with you that YOU began..

You quoted me first.. All I've done is try and figure out what you believe ever since since you keep seeming to deny the words of the Bible itself..

While true, I don't always refuse the identity. In fact, when I first came into this forum I did select the term Christian, because of not having the ability to identify as Messianic Jewish. But as stepped more into this thread yesterday the differences finally started reaching my nostrils again. As much as I want to come along side our commonality of faith in Jesus it's continually sidelined by all the replacement theology embedded into your beliefs. It's like being a gay man while standing in a group of straight men. They try to identify as a person like all the rest but the culture and learned dogma's expose the division between the two.

I'm a believer, we can identify together on the very basics, and that's cool! But, when the details come out, then the devil gets going it seems. So, in general I can handle being called a Christian by those who are not dogmatically bent. But when Christians like Ed start trying to correlate my identity with their church beliefs I have to distance myself from the identity. I do not hold to the teachings of the church fathers at all. I find them grossly anti-Semitic and devoid of the teachings of the Spirit of God. Yet, even still God can and is working through those within the church to reach them. Grace and mercy is foremost. And even more, some of them did have very good things to say about our faith. But in general it seems the veil was not completely torn, only transferred to others. <<sarcasm

I don't shutter at the label, I shutter at the redefinition's and actions of those who hold the banner. And since I am Jewish with my roots in the good soil of Israel whom the Lord God has formed and intends to prosper dispite our enemies, I whole-heartedly embrace the identity of my fathers. Without pause or reservation. I am fully content in my faith walk with the God of Israel and our Messiah Yeshua.

that is my understanding with Messianics I have fellowshipped with

I was actually once told by a Messianic believer that as a Gentile I should be grateful to the Jews and they had a song prepared and asked that I sing this (I was involved in leading the worship part of ministry). well I said no because I believe what scripture teaches...none of us are above another in Christ

some of us have a better understanding and that would include a bigger responsibility if God has brought us to that by His Spirit

Interesting problem. To be a Christian who is Jewish or to be Jewish and a Christian. It is impossible to change ones ethnicity but one must be changed by grace or perish in ones sins.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

So your here saying you changed your "Christian" status yesterday after encountering and discussing with me because I remind you of all the things you hate?

Seriously?

That's is offensive. Seriously offensive!

Christ saved me... I'm sorry your so bothered by that..

Other people can discuss with walkingtree or whatever his name is.

I'm out.. absolutely out. I was nothing but kind and did nothing besides try and have a discussion that this person instigated with me..

I've got a whole bunch of people coming at me at once here. I'm speaking sometimes to you, sometimes to the group. I multitask for a living . so bear with me. please. It appears you are more of a linear person. I can function two things or more at once. To a point.

And I truly appreciate this.

I think we are discussing semantics here. So i'm not that worried about agreeing on our specific perspective. I believe we agree about who Jesus is, but from above and being born in the flesh. Why let the details divide us? Your church packaged the understanding as the trinity, my faith defines it as the shema. God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit. You define and identify it as three persons. I do not. Am I now damned? I believe the Father is God, I believe the Son is God in the Flesh and I believe the Spirit is God's whom he placed in the Son. But man oh man am I not interested in the church concept of this doctrine. Bacically because it tries to repackage what we have already been given and revealed through Yeshua and the Spirit. And very poorly at that. I'll stick with my peoples understanding of our God, thank you.

Good, because all I see here is a screen with a person typing on the other end. Your words are your life! They express your being. I don't think you hate me. Your are taking what I said about replacement theology within the church and taken it for yourself. Don't step into the shoes and they wont walk you down that path. We're good Hazelelponi.

Agreed, no matter in Messiah. However, there is a future for Israel that is inextricably linked to the Messiah. Especially his second coming. Israel is not a footstool, it's the mountain top. The nations restoration is completely tied to Israel's. This is the reason the enemy has injected replacement theology into the believing nations. If he can get you to reject Israel he can get you to forsake your own redemption. They are tied together, as one new man.
Thank you for responding in kind. (pun intended).

sigh. Sorry you have misunderstood something and have taken offense at it. I'm glad you believe Christ saved you. YOU were not the reason. You seem to take things very personally and are very sensitive. I would like to wish you blessings and to conclude our discussion. Shalom